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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2012 08:08 
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Friends,
So I learned that the LotH is ready to come out with a new and improved ICEL version.
I think that only those who recite the LotH "in community" (such as Secular Franciscans) need to buy the new books. Those like me, who does the Office "a solo" need not, since one wouldn't have to worry about one's book having different wordings than the others.

Still, because I now attend the TLM which has a different calendar than the NO, I thought it best to opt for the new Baronius Breviary, as deliciously reviewed and photographed HERE and praised in Fr. Z's blog. The price? $350.00! to which my pocketbook cries, "No way, Nooo waay!"

So I shopped Ebay and won this beautiful 3-volume 1962 Latin-English Collegeville Breviary in two bids. I received the shipment in time for the First Sunday of Advent.

The books are in mint condition, the leather covers supple and but for sticky tapes criscrossing the back cover of the third volume (easily peeled off and cleaned), look and feel new. There's the tiny, tiny pencil-written name of the previous owner on one corner of the inside front cover of Book I. The pages themselves are quite pristine and the edges sharp - no scruffs, no discoloration, no smudges or water damage whatsoever. I feel so blessed owning it and walked on air to Church that night for my scheduled 2-hour midnight Eucharistic adoration, ready to tackle my first Matins. I have the time, the place, and the eagerness to study and pray it. Then what?

I opened the book and was immediately discouraged. The Invitatory was simple enough to follow, but what are these, ah, "Nocturns"? They appear to be groups of three psalms each, each psalm followed by a short responsory in a separate section, followed by a "Lesson" in another section, and a Pater Noster, and - Blessings? A bit too complicated for a previous LotH user already, not to mention sections on the feasts of saints, the commons of Our Lady, the apostles, martyrs, and confessors. There are five ribbons in liturgical colors to mark the sections and if I use extra holy cards to bookmark the rest, the book would look like a porcupine with colored tails.

Still I persevered - reading the rubics many times over, examining the sections and trying to identify the Ordinary, the Propers, and the Psalter - plus the section on short commemoration of saints whose feastdays fall within the Season (my beloved St. Francis Xavier, for instance in Advent, on Dec. 3.) I had problems locating the Collect in Lauds. But Matins alone sent me reeling - the section has as many as nine psalms each day, mercifully numbered one to nine, but does not tell you which days to recite them all and when to do only three or six. There's also a "Te Deum" after each Matins, and I wondered whether it should be recited every day or just on Sundays and Holy days, as in the LotH.

I had planned to do the prayers in English only for now. And after I've become familiar with the book would I venture to explore the Latin text and chant them (privately) if I can, with the help of my trusty Liber Usualis. But after the first week of getting lost and not making much progress, I was ready to give up and go back to the LotH.

But not yet. This old Breviary definitely has great advantages over the LotH. The introductions for each day alone are great pieces of short meditations, plus each psalm is explained, so that you get a deeper meaning of the text and savor the poetry. The "curse" psalms have not been sanitized. it almost shocked me to read the line about God "crushing the heads of His enemy" in Ps. 68, which I don't remember ever reading in the LotH.

So I think I'll stick with the 1963 Breviary. Meanwhile I've ordered another book, "The Divine Office" by Rev. E. J. Quigley, to guide me on how to pray the Office. There may be other publications and websites that can help. It's starting to look like an expensive undertaking - this switching form the LotH to the pre-Vatican II Divine Office. But remember, I got the Divine Office for less than half the price of the brand-new Baronius! Yay!

And there's still the Latin text to study and love. I was surprised to read, in the short responsory after each psalm, words of my most-loved Advent hymn, "Rorate Caeli Desuper." "...et mítte quem missúrus es: emítte Agnum dominatórem térræ, de Pétra desérti ad móntem fíliæ Síon." I think that alone is worth the price and the effort.

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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2012 08:53 
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Hints for Matins:

Sometimes there are 3 readings, after all of the psalms.
Sometimes there are 9 readings. If there are 9, you do 3 after each 'nocturne' - i.e. 3 psalms 3 readings (+responses), then the next 3 psalms...

There are occasions when you need to use reading 1 for the day, then combine 2&3 to make one reading (with one of the responses), then use a reading from the common/proper for the saint. 3rd class feast days sometimes work like that.

During Eastertide you only use 1 nocturne (3 psalms) each day. So the first week is 1st nocturne, the 2nd week you use 2nd nocturne etc.


Te Deum on Sundays and feasts including 3rd Class, except where there isn't a Te Deum.


Alternatively, start with Lauds and use the Matins readings for lectio.

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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2012 10:51 
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Thanks, Julie. God bless you - I know you would help. :)

Quote:
Sometimes there are 3 readings, after all of the psalms.


Which days do you this? You mean, you do all 3 psalms one-after-another before doing all the readings ("lessons")?

Quote:
Sometimes there are 9 readings. If there are 9, you do 3 after each 'nocturne' - i.e. 3 psalms 3 readings (+responses), then the next 3 psalms...


Again - when (what days) do you do 9 readings? Also, do you alternate the psalms and readings, i.e. 1st psalm, 1st reading - then, 2nd psalm, 2nd reading, etc ? Or do you do 3 psalms, 3 readings?

Quote:
There are occasions when you need to use reading 1 for the day, then combine 2&3 to make one reading (with one of the responses),


What occasions, for example?

Quote:
then use a reading from the common/proper for the saint. 3rd class feast days sometimes work like that.


I got that one. Thanks.

Quote:
During Eastertide you only use 1 nocturne (3 psalms) each day. So the first week is 1st nocturne, the 2nd week you use 2nd nocturne etc.


Thankfully, I haven't explored that far yet. But if that is so, why would Eastertide seem less complicated than Advent? Does the one-nocturne-a-day apply for Sundays too?

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Te Deum on Sundays and feasts including 3rd Class, except where there isn't a Te Deum.


And when isn't there a Te Deum?

Quote:
Alternatively, start with Lauds and use the Matins readings for lectio.


I don't do lectio yet - is that different from readings? Can it be done just like the Office of Readings in LotH, meaning any time of the day or night?

Another question: When do you do the Pater Noster and Blessings? Do you do them after each nocturn, or at the end of Matins?

Thanks again, Julie. You're a great resource in this forum.

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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2012 12:20 
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I am waiting for the ebook edition for a kindle or a smart phone.

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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2012 12:41 
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Only problem is that I am dead certain that once the new version comes out, the St Joseph's Guides will only be available for that...

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PostPosted: 11 Dec 2012 13:11 
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Marie,

You're scaring me. I can barely do the LTOH when it's an ordinary day. I just can learn it.

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 02:27 
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Marie -

Bear with me... Your best bet for the start is to look at Sunday where it should all be laid out for you.

Okay, so - hope you don't mind the quotes in Latin!


Domine labia mea aperies...
Deus in adjutorium...
The psalm Venite adoremus with the antiphon alternating between strophes.
The hymn (seasonal i.e. Verbum supernum now, or from common/proper on feast days)


Then... if there are nine readings:
First antiphon, first psalm, first antiphon.
Next two psalms with antiphons. I.e. 3 psalms before readings.
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Jube Domine, benedicere.
Blessing - read this even on your own, saying 'Domine' not 'domne' coz talking directly to God!
First reading and response.
Blessing - reading 2 - response 2
Blessing - reading 3 - response 3
End of first nocturne.

Psalms 4,5,6 with antiphons
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Blessing - reading 4 - response 4
Blessing- reading 5 - response 5
Blessing - reading 6 - response 6
End of second nocturne.

Psalms 7,8,9 with antiphons
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Blessing - reading 7 - response 7
Blessing- reading 8 - response 8
Blessing - reading 9 - response 9
End of third nocturne.


If there are 3 readings:
All psalms, with their antiphons.
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Jube Domine, benedicere.
Blessing
First reading and response.
Blessing - reading 2 - response 2
Blessing - reading 3 - response 3


For Eastertide, 3 psalms with antiphons, 3 readings with responses, stop. The three psalms change with the weeks - first week you use first nocturne, third week you use third nocturne.

Te Deum laudamus when it is said (usually, but not on penitential days)

If Lauds does not follow immediately:
Domine exaudi orationem meam (you're not with a priest)
Oremus... Collect
Dne exaudi
Benediamus Domino, Deo gratias,
Fidelium animae...

If Lauds follows:
Read the 'verses before Lauds' and start Deus in adjutorium...

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 03:07 
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Oh - I should probably mention:

The Te Deum, like the Gloria at Holy Mass, is used on all feast days. That includes feasts of the third class - the equivalent of 'memorias' in the newer Liturgy. So whereas in LOTH you only use it on solemnities, in the '62 DO you use the Te Deum far more often.

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 07:01 
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If anyone might be interested, the old Breviary is available, on line, at www.breviary.net. I've been using it, off and on, for several months. It costs $24 per year, but, in my opinion, well worth it. Might want to check it out. When I signed up, I had to send a check, as they only accept pay-pal, money orders, or checks.

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 13:39 
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SCHULTZZKOPF wrote:
I am waiting for the ebook edition for a kindle or a smart phone.


Very practical, my dear Brother Schultz, if you're doing it "a solo." But when you do Evening Prayers with your Secular Franciscan fraternity, will the other members also use kindle or smart phone or the new version? It would be a problem if the others use LotH or Short Christian Prayer and you will be using the new version on smart phone.

May our father Saint Francis bless you.

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 13:52 
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Luigi Daniele wrote:
Only problem is that I am dead certain that once the new version comes out, the St Joseph's Guides will only be available for that...


Lou,
I've never used the Saint Joseph Guide even for the LotH. (You're right, it may not be applicable to the old Breviary or the new LotH.)

But for the LotH, all you need is a Catholic wall calendar that tells you what Sunday you're on and the days of the week should follow that Sunday. For instance, on the coming Third Sunday of Advent - Week III of the Psalter - the Monday-thru-Saturday hours will be the "Third Week of Advent."

If you get lost, just consult your wall calendar again. It has to be a Catholic wall calendar - the kind that they give away on Christmas and New Year's day, courtesy of your friendly local mortuaries and friendly local Catholic cemeteries, distributed as Christmas gifts by your friendly local parish. :)

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 13:57 
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Val wrote:
You're scaring me. I can barely do the LTOH when it's an ordinary day. I just can learn it.


You'll get there yet, Val. And you'll learn to love it like all other Benedictines! God bless you.

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 14:26 
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Julie R wrote:

Bear with me... Your best bet for the start is to look at Sunday where it should all be laid out for you.


Thank you, Julie, for staying with me. I find that on the feasts of Our Lady - the Immaculate Conception part, for instance - the Office has it all laid out for me. That was easy.

Quote:
Okay, so - hope you don't mind the quotes in Latin!


Love it!

Quote:
Domine labia mea aperies...
Deus in adjutorium...
The psalm Venite adoremus with the antiphon alternating between strophes.
The hymn (seasonal i.e. Verbum supernum now, or from common/proper on feast days)


Got it!

Quote:
Then... if there are nine readings:
First antiphon, first psalm, first antiphon.
Next two psalms with antiphons. I.e. 3 psalms before readings.


I see. It's 1 reading after 3 psalms. Got it - thank you so much. (This was where I got lost!)

Quote:
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Jube Domine, benedicere.
Blessing - read this even on your own, saying 'Domine' not 'domne' coz talking directly to God!
First reading and response.
Blessing - reading 2 - response 2
Blessing - reading 3 - response 3
End of first nocturne.


Now I see the continuity. You're a great guide, Julie.

Quote:
Psalms 4,5,6 with antiphons
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Blessing - reading 4 - response 4
Blessing- reading 5 - response 5
Blessing - reading 6 - response 6
End of second nocturne.

Psalms 7,8,9 with antiphons
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Blessing - reading 7 - response 7
Blessing- reading 8 - response 8
Blessing - reading 9 - response 9
End of third nocturne.

If there are 3 readings:
All psalms, with their antiphons.
Versicle
Paternoster (silent)
'et ne nos inducas...' aloud.
Jube Domine, benedicere.
Blessing
First reading and response.
Blessing - reading 2 - response 2
Blessing - reading 3 - response 3


I'm printing your guide, Julie. It's simpler than wrestling with the rubrics in the book!

Quote:
For Eastertide, 3 psalms with antiphons, 3 readings with responses, stop. The three psalms change with the weeks - first week you use first nocturne, third week you use third nocturne.


I'll look this up when I get there. Hopefully, by Lent, I would have mastered the book.

Quote:
Te Deum laudamus when it is said (usually, but not on penitential days)

Okay.

Quote:
If Lauds does not follow immediately:


My Lauds usually follows Matins, as when I did LotH, but this is a great reminder.

Quote:
Domine exaudi orationem meam (you're not with a priest)


Yes, I knew that from college, when we used to recite Prime before school started.

Quote:
Oremus... Collect
Dne exaudi
Benediamus Domino, Deo gratias,
Fidelium animae...


Quote:
If Lauds follows:
Read the 'verses before Lauds' and start Deus in adjutorium...


Great, great, great! Again, thank you so much, Julie. This will do me. You have a most Blessed Christmas and New Year! :)

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 14:35 
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Julie R wrote:
Oh - I should probably mention:

The Te Deum, like the Gloria at Holy Mass, is used on all feast days. That includes feasts of the third class - the equivalent of 'memorias' in the newer Liturgy. So whereas in LOTH you only use it on solemnities, in the '62 DO you use the Te Deum far more often.


Thanks again, Julie. That's great to know, especially if it's your favorite saints on commemoration. :)

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 14:38 
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Deacon Glen Wearden wrote:
If anyone might be interested, the old Breviary is available, on line, at http://www.breviary.net. I've been using it, off and on, for several months. It costs $24 per year, but, in my opinion, well worth it. Might want to check it out. When I signed up, I had to send a check, as they only accept pay-pal, money orders, or checks.


Welcome back, Deacon Glen - We (I) miss you! Thanks for the link. It's a great website and I will surely explore it. Have a most Blessed Christmastide. :)

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PostPosted: 12 Dec 2012 17:04 
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sfousa wrote:
Luigi Daniele wrote:
Only problem is that I am dead certain that once the new version comes out, the St Joseph's Guides will only be available for that...


Lou,
I've never used the Saint Joseph Guide even for the LotH. (You're right, it may not be applicable to the old Breviary or the new LotH.)

But for the LotH, all you need is a Catholic wall calendar that tells you what Sunday you're on and the days of the week should follow that Sunday. For instance, on the coming Third Sunday of Advent - Week III of the Psalter - the Monday-thru-Saturday hours will be the "Third Week of Advent."

If you get lost, just consult your wall calendar again. It has to be a Catholic wall calendar - the kind that they give away on Christmas and New Year's day, courtesy of your friendly local mortuaries and friendly local Catholic cemeteries, distributed as Christmas gifts by your friendly local parish. :)


Thanks so very much for this. I will try to find one. :)

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 07:22 
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I could have written this. LOL!! In my case, I splurged big time and purchased the Baronius Breviary which is so lovely. However, I'm in over my head in trying to figure it out from books. I'm not sure how to go about asking around here to get someone to show me.

But seeing what you wrote here, it encourages me to know it isn't just something in me, this is really that confusing to get used to using.



sfousa wrote:
Friends,
So I learned that the LotH is ready to come out with a new and improved ICEL version.
I think that only those who recite the LotH "in community" (such as Secular Franciscans) need to buy the new books. Those like me, who does the Office "a solo" need not, since one wouldn't have to worry about one's book having different wordings than the others.... I received the shipment in time for the First Sunday of Advent.

The books are in mint condition, the leather covers supple and but for sticky tapes criscrossing the back cover of the third volume (easily peeled off and cleaned), look and feel new. There's the tiny, tiny pencil-written name of the previous owner on one corner of the inside front cover of Book I. The pages themselves are quite pristine and the edges sharp - no scruffs, no discoloration, no smudges or water damage whatsoever. I feel so blessed owning it and walked on air to Church that night for my scheduled 2-hour midnight Eucharistic adoration, ready to tackle my first Matins. I have the time, the place, and the eagerness to study and pray it. Then what?

I opened the book and was immediately discouraged. The Invitatory was simple enough to follow, but what are these, ah, "Nocturns"? They appear to be groups of three psalms each, each psalm followed by a short responsory in a separate section, followed by a "Lesson" in another section, and a Pater Noster, and - Blessings? A bit too complicated for a previous LotH user already, not to mention sections on the feasts of saints, the commons of Our Lady, the apostles, martyrs, and confessors. There are five ribbons in liturgical colors to mark the sections and if I use extra holy cards to bookmark the rest, the book would look like a porcupine with colored tails.

Still I persevered - reading the rubics many times over, examining the sections and trying to identify the Ordinary, the Propers, and the Psalter - plus the section on short commemoration of saints whose feastdays fall within the Season (my beloved St. Francis Xavier, for instance in Advent, on Dec. 3.) I had problems locating the Collect in Lauds. But Matins alone sent me reeling - the section has as many as nine psalms each day, mercifully numbered one to nine, but does not tell you which days to recite them all and when to do only three or six. There's also a "Te Deum" after each Matins, and I wondered whether it should be recited every day or just on Sundays and Holy days, as in the LotH.

I had planned to do the prayers in English only for now. And after I've become familiar with the book would I venture to explore the Latin text and chant them (privately) if I can, with the help of my trusty Liber Usualis. But after the first week of getting lost and not making much progress, I was ready to give up and go back to the LotH.

But not yet. This old Breviary definitely has great advantages over the LotH. The introductions for each day alone are great pieces of short meditations, plus each psalm is explained, so that you get a deeper meaning of the text and savor the poetry. The "curse" psalms have not been sanitized. it almost shocked me to read the line about God "crushing the heads of His enemy" in Ps. 68, which I don't remember ever reading in the LotH.

So I think I'll stick with the 1963 Breviary. Meanwhile I've ordered another book, "The Divine Office" by Rev. E. J. Quigley, to guide me on how to pray the Office. There may be other publications and websites that can help. It's starting to look like an expensive undertaking - this switching form the LotH to the pre-Vatican II Divine Office. But remember, I got the Divine Office for less than half the price of the brand-new Baronius! Yay!

And there's still the Latin text to study and love. I was surprised to read, in the short responsory after each psalm, words of my most-loved Advent hymn, "Rorate Caeli Desuper." "...et mítte quem missúrus es: emítte Agnum dominatórem térræ, de Pétra desérti ad móntem fíliæ Síon." I think that alone is worth the price and the effort.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 07:33 
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Quote:
Quote:
But for the LotH, all you need is a Catholic wall calendar that tells you what Sunday you're on and the days of the week should follow that Sunday. For instance, on the coming Third Sunday of Advent - Week III of the Psalter - the Monday-thru-Saturday hours will be the "Third Week of Advent."

If you get lost, just consult your wall calendar again. It has to be a Catholic wall calendar - the kind that they give away on Christmas and New Year's day, courtesy of your friendly local mortuaries and friendly local Catholic cemeteries, distributed as Christmas gifts by your friendly local parish. :)


Thanks so very much for this. I will try to find one. :)


TAN has a Catholic calendar and planner that is very handy and useful if you are still looking for something. Mine is open on my desk and has all sorts of information in it, Saints days, etc. A very thorough Catholic calendar.

I bought mine because I went to my parents over Christmas and the free calendars were gone before I got back. :(

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 15:46 
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For those interested in praying the older Office, or part thereof, from a computer screen, I recommend http://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/horas/officium.pl

It is free. You can download the whole programme (for free) if you don't want to go online each time. There are options for various settings including '56 and '62 (for Liturgy buffs) and side-by-side English for non-Latinists. There's even an audio option. The programme automatically finds the right bits for you - no searching for hymns/antiphons/collects. You can choose the Office for the Dead or the Officium Parvum if you want and you can opt for a less changeable 'seasonal' Office for those not bound to recitation. Prime includes the martyrology (depending on other settings it may be of the following day or the current day). You can look ahead by changing the date.

There's also a missal version.

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PostPosted: 13 Dec 2012 18:50 
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I've no doubt the online versions are pretty amazing, but it is a pleasure to pray from a book too.

I probably should work up the nerve to call the various parishes and ask if they know anyone using the version I use who could walk me through it.

Usually, when I have asked people I know who pray the LOTH, they always start off by trying to get me to get an "easier" version.

<<sigh>>

THIS one is amazing and I want to use it. Oh well, when the time is right, the opportunity to learn will happen.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)


Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com


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PostPosted: 14 Dec 2012 04:03 
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I prefer the books. Definitely!

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?


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