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This is a question about the old (1962 and earlier) breviary.

At then end of Prime there is a versicle and response, thus:

V. Benedicite. R. Deus.

In Latin, the single word "benedicite" is a complete sentence, but the single word "Deus" is not. In some English translations "Deus" is filled out with "May God be eternally blessed and eternally bless us", but I would like to know if there is a Latin "filling out" that goes here, or does one just pray the single word "Deus"?

Thanks in advance!

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Scott Carson

Si propter peccata mea me sinat perire, saltem iustitia eius in me laudabitur. --St. Thomas More

No, "Deus" is just said as is. It is one sentence "Benedicite Deus", but split in half in versicle format for the hebdomadarius and those in choir.

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In caritate Xp.,

Timothy

Thanks, Timothy!

May I ask one more question, then, based on your response here? "Benedicite" is a 2nd person plural imperative, so how could "Benedicite Deus" be a single sentence? Could you suggest a literal translation of the phrase for me, to help me get a sense for how the thing works? (The only English translation that I have seen renders the two things as separate sentences: V. Give the blessing; R. May God be eternally blessed and bless us eternally. That's obviously not very literal!)

Thanks again--I'm really grateful for your help!

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Scott Carson

Si propter peccata mea me sinat perire, saltem iustitia eius in me laudabitur. --St. Thomas More

Scott,

I think it would make for sense for you if read it as "Benedicite, Deus", reading that as the vocative, "O God".

It's extremely difficult to translate this in modern English. I can't think of a good one off the top of my head.

For example, at the very lengthy Roman grace before meals, one begins by singing the versicle:

V. Benedicite.
R. Benedicite.
...etc.

I think the Anglicans translated this as "Bless ye", which is silly sounding, as is "Give the blessing"/"Give the blessing" (I'd be waiting for someone to say, "will someone just bless the food so we can eat?")

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In caritate Xp.,

Timothy

Thanks again, Timothy--I'm finding this very helpful. I hope you won't be irritated if I ask just one more question, because I'm still a little confused.

I suppose treating "Deus" as a vocative helps a little, but it still doesn't explain, at least as far as I can see, the 2nd person plural of "benedicite". Usually the vocative case is for direct address (as you translate it above). But when the verb is in the 2nd plural imperative, the address is to a group of persons. Are you suggesting that this will be OK, grammatically, since "Deus" refers to a Trinity of Persons, or do you see the grammar working some other way?

I don't mean to be so dense, I'm just trying to make sense of the grammar--I do thank you for your patience!

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Scott Carson

Si propter peccata mea me sinat perire, saltem iustitia eius in me laudabitur. --St. Thomas More

No, you're not dense at all, Scott. I've never really thought about this versicle before, and unfortunately "Andreas", our Latin expert, has signed off of COL. I'll have to think it over for a bit.

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In caritate Xp.,

Timothy

Thanks, Timothy, I really do appreciate your taking the time to help!

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Scott Carson

Si propter peccata mea me sinat perire, saltem iustitia eius in me laudabitur. --St. Thomas More

Excuse me, but couldn't it be a typo for Deo? Have you checked with another edition? The old prayer books I have at home are thick with typos, especially in the Latin parts.

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Anna B.

Grammatically that would make sense, especially if, as Timothy says, we're to read the words as a single sentence. But I'm pretty sure it's not a typo--I have several copies of old breviaries, some from the 1950s, some from the 1930s, and one from 1915--and the versicle and response are the same in all. If it's a typo, it's a typo being made by several different presses in several different countries at widely separated points in time!

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Scott Carson

Si propter peccata mea me sinat perire, saltem iustitia eius in me laudabitur. --St. Thomas More

It's not a typo, it's "Deus".

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In caritate Xp.,

Timothy

Well, after all these years I'm finally able to supply an answer to this question myself.

The versicle and response are part of the Chapter Office at Prime, and that office has its origins in the Benedictine tradition. According to the Rule of Saint Benedict, the monks are to greet one another whenever they pass each other. The senior monk says "Benedic" (or plural, "benedicite", if several monks are present), and the junior(s) reply "Deus", with a "te benedicat" elided. This formal greeting routine was incorporated in the Chapter Office itself and is used to this day.

Translations into English often try to supply the elided formula, and different translations supply different things. In Latin, however, it is enough to say simply "Deus". I suppose it's like answering "fine" to "How are you"--we leave out the "I'm" or "I am" or "I am doing", etc., but the other party understands what we mean.

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Scott Carson

Si propter peccata mea me sinat perire, saltem iustitia eius in me laudabitur. --St. Thomas More

Welcome back, Scott.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Thanks Dean!

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Scott Carson

Si propter peccata mea me sinat perire, saltem iustitia eius in me laudabitur. --St. Thomas More