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 Post subject: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 12:36 
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I need some help on this, especially with words from Gregory himself. This individual, as usual, refuses to see that Peter is the rock, so it appears the Scriptural position is moot for him.

from an 'Orthodox' Christian wrote:
Jesus Christ gave Peter the authority to bind and loose in Matthew 16:19, and gives that same power to all of the apostles in Matthew 18:18. In the ancient church, the Petrine see was in every diocese of the catholic church, not just Rome. Every bishop rightfully sits upon the Chair of Peter, the rock built by his confession of faith. It was only later that the view of the Roman bishop as universal (condemned by Gregory) developed. St. Cyprian also viewed the Petrine see as in every local diocese. Even Catholic scholars will admit this, but try to dance around or dismiss it.

"Was it not the case, as your Fraternity knows, that the prelates of this Apostolic See which by the providence of God I serve, had the honour offered them of being called universal by the venerable Council of Chalcedon. But yet not one of them has ever wished to be called by such a title, or seized upon this ill-advised name, lest if, in virtue of the rank of the pontificate, he took to himself the glory of singularity, he might seem to have denied it to all his brethren."
-St. Gregory


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 Post subject: Re: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 12:52 
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Crawford,

Fabrizio is away from the forum for a few days. He may not respond for awhile.

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Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu


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 Post subject: Re: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 12:54 
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Others can assist as well. I'm researching now.

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 Post subject: Re: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 13:03 
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Crawford, I would start by asking him to establish, via reliable sources, his stance that the early church believed, as a whole, that there was pan-Apostolic primacy, not merely Petrine Primacy. Then ask him to address these quotes:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

Next, I would google that quote from Gregory. There are a number of sites by faithful Catholics, such as http://www.cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a084.html and http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num7.htm, that will assist you in answering this.

Further, I would then read up on the other opinions of Gregory the Great and any comments he made on the matter other than that one. If the body of Gregory's work supports the idea of Petrine and Roman primacy, then clearly that quote is out of context or otherwise misinterpreted.

Those are good starting points. I pray you are successful and that souls are converted to be closer to the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 13:41 
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Jeff and Dean,

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 14:14 
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Catholic Dogma and Doctrine has developed over time and as a result of controversies and challenges. St. Vincent of Lerins and Cardinal Newman both write eloquently about the development of Dogma and Doctrine.

The Deposit of Faith existed whole and entire from the beginning of the Church, yet our understanding of this Deposit was deepened and expanded as time, necessity and inspiration saw fit.

You will not find a definitive "Bishop of Rome" is Supreme Authority in the early church writings but the understanding of that authority grew as more and more heresies required a definitive answer.

Since links were given above I will not add any more to the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 14:45 
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Crawford,

When a dispute arose in Corinth they looked to Clement, the fourth bishop of Rome, to arbitrate. They did this even though at the time there was still an Apostle alive who was geographicaly closer in Ephesus.

The primacy of Rome dates from the beginning. St Gregory the Great was himself a staunch defender of that primacy.

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 Post subject: Re: Help (Fabrizio?)
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2009 18:27 
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Crawford,

Here's another one for your ref: http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

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Wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church.- St. Ignatius of Antioch


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