Catholic Online Forum

JMJ

Hi all,

My apologies if this is in the wrong section.

Why are we Catholic and not Orthodox?

Thanks,

Tad

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Dear God, I think of you sometimes, even if I'm not praying. ~ Elliot

Mainly because we are in full and unimpaired communion with the Pope of Rome. That is more or less what distinguished Eastern Catholics from Eastern Orthodox Christians.

Included in that is the debate about what exactly it means to be the Bishop of Rome, whether and to what extent the Bishop of Rome has juridical authority over local/national churches, and one or two doctrines such as whether or not the pope, on his own, can proclaim things infallably.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Ted & Julie:

So, if catholics have the best answers to Julie's summary, and the right position is the 'orthodox' one because the word just *means* 'right teachings' in Greek, why aren't the Catholics called 'Orthodox' and the Orthodox called something else? Maybe Constaninopolitans. I think the answer's not much more elevated than that the words have become a habit of history. When i looked them up, it turns out they both come from Greek, but latin borrowed katholikon roughly around the time of Christ, while orthodoxos was always a 'foreign' looking word in a Latin text. So if there's any underlying reason, common Latin practice favored the more 'native' sounding word.

The words are really descriptions rather than just names. Nor are they the same description: 'catholic' refers to the extent of the Church's domain and by metaphor its universal necessity, 'orthodox' to its rites and teachings, and by metaphor its means of salvation.

Come to think of it, 'Catholic' isn't identical to 'Latin-rite' nowadays - is it? It's just the headache of words.


I sometimes try to say 'I go to/ am a member of So-and-So', then I get to chat up my parish, if i've got the nerve. I do it on the idea that people seem less frightened by actual catholics than by the word 'catholic.'

kirk

by the way, what does JMJ mean?

kirk

JMJ

JMJ stands for Jesu Maria Joseph (but it works in English as well: Jesus Mary Joseph)

it is traditional for Catholics to put this acronym on top of letters, messages, notes whatever. Reminds you of God and of the duty of dedicating even the smallest action to Him, since everything must be done with the aim of going to Heaven while doing His will here on Earth. What better example of that than the Holy Family?

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FabrizioParty like it's 1773!

The safest place for me to be is in the center of God's will, and if that is in the line of fire, that's where I'll be-Fr. T. Vakoc

JMJ



A Maronite Catholic fighting to stay alive in nowadays Lebanon or the Greek-Catholic communities that made it through 70 years of USSR and are still striving for a future in east-Europe would disagree...

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FabrizioParty like it's 1773!

The safest place for me to be is in the center of God's will, and if that is in the line of fire, that's where I'll be-Fr. T. Vakoc

Father Fabrizio,

I'm sorry if that sounded flippant. I only meant the words themselves are a headache - unless one likes such things. But maybe I was wrong to make a distinction between 'Catholic' and 'Latin rite'? I didn't mean they were exclusive of each other, just different ideas.

Thank you for reminding me about the troubles faced by our brethren.

kirk

JMJ

Nothing to apologize for, Kirk, it was just an observation



well, I am the proud father of 3 little tornadoes (and hoping to be blessed with more) but....

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FabrizioParty like it's 1773!

The safest place for me to be is in the center of God's will, and if that is in the line of fire, that's where I'll be-Fr. T. Vakoc

When people ask me what I am I tell them I am a Byzantine Catholic. When they ask what that is I tell them that I am a Catholic form the Eastern Church. If they say something like, "your from Jersey?" I then tell them that My Church is from the Carpathian mountains in Eastern Europe and Southern Russian. Then they say, "oh, so you are Orthodox." I say, "no, I am Catholic, but if you go into my Church you would be hard pressed to find the difference between it and an Orthodox Church." Then they usually give me this look -->

Sometimes I tell them that I am an orthodox Byzantine Catholic of the Ruthenian rite. That usually stops the conversation cold unless they are truly interested and then it is a lot easier to explain it to them.

I feel that I am more orthodox about my Christianity than most Romans (present company excepted). Yes, I am still very uneasy about going to a Roman mass, probably as much as an Orthodox would feel, I shiver at intstraments being played during mass and I make a conscious effort, sometimes, making a fool of myself, to receive communion from only the priest or deacon. Yes, I have strong feelings against any kind of statue even tree dimentional crucifixes and I have an icon corner filled with icons, insence and prayer books and 95% of all my prayers are sung . But I am without a doubt 100% Catholic.

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Patrick Mitchell

Hospody Isuse Khryste, synu zhyvogo Boga, pomylui mene grishnyka
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have Mercy on me, a sinner

Patrick,

Your post just made me laugh.

As a Latin, I don't usually get those problems, but I am well aware of my friends encountering them.



Totally agree. However, when it comes to the statues, I don't have a problem with them. They just don't help me pray.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Icons are visual focal points for prayer as they are windows into heaven and are all over the walls in our Church. I guess I am the same way as statues as you but I do not like them in a Church. I mean I love Michelangelo's pieta.

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Patrick Mitchell

Hospody Isuse Khryste, synu zhyvogo Boga, pomylui mene grishnyka
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have Mercy on me, a sinner

Fabrizio - woops, somewhere my eyes crossed!

Kirk

Patrick,



Having been brought up in an Orthodox Church, I understand what you mean by statues. While I am now 100% Catholic, I'm still not comfortable with statues. I prefer paintings and icons. While I would never go back to the Orthodox Church, I do miss some of the Byzantine spirituality. One of these days I am going to find an Eastern Rite Catholic Church and attend a liturgy.



Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Kirk,



I grew up in the Greek Orthodox Church. I remember asking my father why we prayed "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church' during the Nicene Creed when we weren't Catholic.

Catholic means universal. While the Orthodox do, for the most part, have correct doctrine, they aren't exactly universal. The Orthodox tend to be very nationalistic. The different Orthodox Churches are "separate but equal". They each have their own bishops and patriarch (or pope). While Catholics, no matter what rite we belong to, are united by one pope and have one magisterium. That's a major difference between Catholics and Orthodox.




Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Tad,



Et in Spiritum Sanctum, Dominum et vivificantem qui ex Patre Filioque procedit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filioque

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Kirk,



It never was. (And not just in the East.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_liturgical_rites

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

James,

But, while they obviously don't actually deny the 'Filioque' clause, the Byzantines and I assume other Eastern rites don't actually ever *say* it. So I don't think that's a basis for the division, though it may have contributed.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

It is one area that I am confused at between the East and the West. Like Julie said. I have never said the Filioque and still don't when I attend Latin Mass.

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Patrick Mitchell

Hospody Isuse Khryste, synu zhyvogo Boga, pomylui mene grishnyka
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have Mercy on me, a sinner

I miss the liturgy where I live now (4.5 hours for an Eastern Church). I do have many CDs of the different Liturgies throughout the year though and I listen to them at full volume, in English, Church Slavonic, Ukranian, Russian and Greek.

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Patrick Mitchell

Hospody Isuse Khryste, synu zhyvogo Boga, pomylui mene grishnyka
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have Mercy on me, a sinner

Jules & Patrick,

At the time, 1054, the filioque was one of two main points of contention; the other being the simple historical fact of the primacy of Rome.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Schism

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

I think the contention about the 'Filioque' was more that it had been introduced in the West (to counteract a specific heresy) without the consent of the East. That seems to be the problem that most of my Orthodox friends have with declarations on subjects such as the Immaculate Conception or Assumption/Dormition of Our Lady - that they weren't consulted about it. I don't know any Orthodox Christian who would actually deny those teachings per se, but those I know: a) don't see the point in defining, say, the Assumption, when everybody *knows* she was received body and soul into heaven; and b) don't like it when the Patriarch of Rome 'just decides' stuff. The fact that everyone believes it, or even was consulted about it, has somehow got lost amongst the 'still being annoyed about the sack of Constantinople'. Which, oddly, is still an issue.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Christians were first called Christians in Antioch and also first called Catholic in Antioch!!
Proclamations used to be called orthodox (right teaching) and catholic (for all)

Patrick, Effie,

Forgive my ignorance. I've never been to an Eastern or Orthodox Church. With regards to not having statues but icons, does this apply to the Crucifix as well?

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Yes it does, sort of. NO 3 dimensional statues anywhere. Crucifixion icons are to be written. However, more and more I see Eastern Catholics with the same crucifixes that Romans have. I have never seen any other saint in 3D. OK scratch that. A lot of people also get the small statues of St Francis to put in their garden. You willnot see a crucifixion icon behind the Alter either. At our church it is an icon of the Mother of the Sign.

This is the Iconistas and alter of our Church in Albuquerque. A lot of Icons but usually the Orthodox have more because they build thier Iconostas taller. Then you just keep adding rows of icons. The tabernacle is on the alter just through the royal doors.

http://www.pbase.com/praetoriv/image/83792456

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Patrick Mitchell

Hospody Isuse Khryste, synu zhyvogo Boga, pomylui mene grishnyka
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have Mercy on me, a sinner

That is really beautiful, Patrick. This thread reminds of something I read in the CCC that art is very much a part of Catholic Tradition, that we learn a lot about what the early Christians teached and believed.

In the words of Pope St. Gregory the Great, it is the books of the ignorant, "What books are to those who can read, that is a picture to the ignorant who look at it; in a picture even the unlearned may see what example they should follow; in a picture they who know no letters may yet read. Hence, for barbarians especially a picture takes the place of a book".

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

My next question is for Julie.

We do not have an Eastern Church in Singapore. So Julie, are there any Eastern Churches in London I can go for Mass, as I will be there end of October?

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Patrick,

Can you normally see the altar? In the Orthodox Church the altar is behind the iconoclast (is that the correct word).

I like being able to see the altar and the consecration.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Hello To my old friend Mrs. Effie

The word you want is iconostsasis. The word " iconoclast "is an image breaker from the time of the iconoclastic heresy when images were considered idolatry.

I have heard several words used for the iconostsais: iconoststasion, iconostsi ( some of my Grek friends haved used this one)

Yours is an easy error to make. If you heard some of mine you would be on the floor rolling with tears in your eyes!!!!!!:)

Z Bohom

Kolya

In the Eastern Church as with Orthodox the Royal doors are open during the Liturgy. Our Iconostas a lot more open than it should be. The panals with the larger icons on them should not have giant holes in them as we do. We had to do it this way because the church voted for a more open Iconostas. I pulled over a mile of cable crisscrossing in the openings to separate the church from the sanctuary.

There are royal doors that I opened only half way for the photograph. The Alter and tabernacle are behind the iconostas. The priest stands facing the East as does the congregation. so there is not much to see on the alter. When the consecration occurs We bow profusely. That is I bow at the waist with my legs straight and touch the floor with my right hand. The majority of people do this. So, to be honest I do not know what the priest does at the consecration I would never feel so important to lift my head. I do however think that he does not raise the Precious Body as they do in the Roman church.

I also just realized that I have never seen the Precious body and the Precious Blood together in the chalice as I receive communion. I did have my communion thrown down my shirt pocket by a Deacon who didn't know what he was doing. It really freaked me out. The deacon reached in and pulled it out but I still had a stain of the precious blood on my front. I went into the sacristy removed my shirt and with the help of an alter server passed clean cool water through it outside into the flower bed. It took about 3 gallons for the precious blood to wash out. I then got home and cut out the area and threw it on a fire. The rest of the shirt was thrown away.

A little off topic but I just remembered all that I wanted to share it.

We just use Iconostas but sometimes Iconostasis.

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Patrick Mitchell

Hospody Isuse Khryste, synu zhyvogo Boga, pomylui mene grishnyka
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have Mercy on me, a sinner

Ian,

http://www.geocities.com/orthodoxchurchsg/

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

Many thanks, James!

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Ian,

There are many Orthodox churches around, but here's a list of Catholic ones I can think of.

Ukies - Duke St, near Bond St. Tube. DL 10:30am
Belarusians - Holden Rd, north Finchley. DL 10:30am
Melkites - Pimlico Rd. (shared church with CofE). DL 11:30am
Maronites - Cirencester St., W2 (can't seem to find Liturgy times).

I think there are more than that, but I don't have a paper directory with me atm. The Ukies quite often hold English Liturgies, which helps a bit if your Slavonic needs brushing up!

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Many thanks, Jules. I'll be staying near Paddington's station, so which is the closest of the ones you recommended -- with all the beautiful icons and all that?

Thanks for your trouble.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Ian -

The Ukrainians are probably the closest, four or five stops on the tube if it's running. However, if you want really authentic, I recommend turning up for Vespers at the Russian Orthodox place in Emmismore Gardens, near the London Oratory (South Kensington on the tube).

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Thanks Jules,

This is very helpful.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

I live in serbia which majority of population is orthodox.....My father is orthodox as well, but like I said in introductions I was raised in cathlic faith and values......
Orthodx is a ,bymy opinion an friendly church ,maybe closer to Roman Catholics than most of protestant groups.....
They have old calendar though, and Srpska Pravoslavna crkva, thats the title of Serbian orthodox, celebrate new year and christmas 13 days later......I've embraced the catholic faith because of my grandma, from mothers side, on the first place.....She came from Croatia in Serbia and married my Grandfather, Czech, before WW2......She was a real angel in human form....Her goodness is something I can only hope to achieve.....But, I try .......In Serbia ,sadly ,there a lot of orthodox believers who say very bad things about catholics and Pope, sometimes in very bad language....But, I know S.P.C. is in constant dialogue with Vatican and i hope views of people will change

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O Divine Heart of Jesus, grant, I beseech Thee, eternal rest to the souls in purgatory, final grace to all who are to die today, true repentance to sinners, the light of faith to pagans, Thy blessing to me and to all who are mine.
Goran

Goran

We all hope for a reunion also and we are all praying. Through the Holy Spirit's intervention, this wil come soon.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

JMJ
If there is wisdom in heads of negotiators, this will be very, very soon

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O Divine Heart of Jesus, grant, I beseech Thee, eternal rest to the souls in purgatory, final grace to all who are to die today, true repentance to sinners, the light of faith to pagans, Thy blessing to me and to all who are mine.
Goran

The Catholic Church Kept on Evolving..the Orthodox Church Stopped in 1045. And The Catholic Church as had Apparitions that have Confirmed it's newer discovery of knowledge.

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MY COMPUTER HAS BEEN HACKED!......i HAVE NOT BEEN ON THIS SITE SINCE THE LAST TIME I CAME ON TO GET PRAYER REQUESTS FOR MY ROSARY..SOME ONE ELSE HAS BEEN IMPERSONATING ME ON THIS SITE...IT HAS BEEN MONTHS SINCE I HAVE BEEN HERE

Dana

Dana,

I believe that public revelation ended with the death of the last Apostle. In other words, since that time there has been no "new" knowledge that is necessary for salvation.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Dana,

Try 1054.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

David,

Notwithstanding private revelation, Dana's point is an interesting one. During the last 1000 years the Catholic Church has undergone considerable development of doctrine (see Newman). There is a sense in which the Eastern Orthodox Churches remain frozen in the 11th cent. One of the more charming features of the Anglican ecclesial communion (I'm thinking of the High Church wing) is that it is, in a sense, frozen in the early 17th cent.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

What sense is that?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

CIX

Kolya,

Perhaps Dana was referring to the way that the Western Church has, in the intervening time, defined and pinned down a lot of Christian teaching which the Eastern Church has not defined? And, perhaps, she is also referring to the visible aspects of the liturgy - for example, the retention of the ancient tones, no addition of musical instruments etc. and, for that matter, the iconostasis?

I have frequent discussions with friends from the Eastern Orthodox Churches and also from the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome about matters such as the Dormition of the Theotokos, and it seems to me that oftn what the West defines, the East celebrates liturgically but does not seek to define. Thus, for example, the Western Church teaches that the Blessed Virgin was 'conceived without stain of original sin' while the Eastern Church merely states that she is 'full of grace'. To me, the two statements are the same, like looking at a half full/half empty glass. We seem to define negatively a lot more, usually in response to specific heresies.

Because of this, while the beliefs of both West and East are the same (not touching on jurisdiction here.... okay?) a lot of them are far more explicit in the West than in the East. We produce books telling us exactly what we have to believe and how much we have to believe it by. To the East, this probably seems crazy. Doing things like this, or promulgating and defining doctrine, makes it look like we hold beliefs that the Eastern Christians do not hold, or that we have developed our understanding of Revelation while they haven't - which isn't necessarily true.


FWIW, I'm probably Catholic and not Orthodox because I was born in the West and Baptised here. Consequently, I think in a Latin way. But there is a lot about the Eastern Church that drew me back to faith. Primarily, however, it comes down to the desire to be in union with the successor of Peter.

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

Slava Isusu Khrestu

Hello To Julie

Just wish to say, in truth, "Thanks!!!!!!!!!"

Z Bohom

the unnworthy sinner
Kolya

Kolya,

There is a caveat: I'm not Dana and therefore I don't know what she was actually thinking!

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Jules Xx


What will become of sinners?

David,

See Julie's answer above. That sense.

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James Daly

"It is the Lord." (Jn 21:7)

David, I agree:) ...Thats a fact, I dont know what kind of information Dana got8O

Same as with catholic -form of dogma

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O Divine Heart of Jesus, grant, I beseech Thee, eternal rest to the souls in purgatory, final grace to all who are to die today, true repentance to sinners, the light of faith to pagans, Thy blessing to me and to all who are mine.
Goran

I tend to think that new revelation is not the same as new knowledge, where the latter could be a deeper understanding of revealed truths.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe