Catholic Online Forum

I am a Catholic who wants to learn more about my faith and one of them, inevitably, leads me to see the Orthodox Church. From what I have seen and read, I believe that the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the Churches who have kept close to the doctrine and teachings of our Lord, Jesus Christ. Although both Churches do not meet eye to eye on certain topics--Papal Supremacy, the Immaculate Conception, etc.--I believe the most important teachings are universal, especially the teaching of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. I pray that one day both Churches can be unified.

Although I have read several things about the Orthodox Church, I would like to see if someone could answer me some questions, from the Orthodox perspective.

1.) What is the view of the Orthodox Church of Sola Scriptura [only by Scripture] and Sola Fide [only by Faith] that alot of the Protestant Christians teach today? Does the Orthodox Church view those teachings as wrong and that there is much more to the teachings of Christ than the Bible alone? Does the Orthodox Church believe it is wrong that by simply declaring Faith in Christ is all one needs to be saved?

2.) The Catholic Church, [I understand that the first six or seven ecumenical councils are recognized by both Churches but not the later ones] has had councils to define and declare dogmas whenever heresy arose. My question is: has the Orthodox Church had any councils on their own? Has the Greek, Russian, etc. Orthodox Churches had a council where all the Orthodox Churches unite to define and declare dogma like the Catholic Church? If not, why?

Any assitance would be greatly appreciated. Thank you and God Bless.

_________________
--Benito
"We are not the inventors of our Faith; we are its custodians."
--Cardinal Francis Arinze

Greetings, Benito.

The Lord is in our midst!



Orthodox and Roman Catholics tend to critique those Protestant convictions for roughly the same reasons, using similar arguments. The Orthodox conceive of Sacred Scripture as one expression of the Tradition of the Church. The Church's authoritative Tradition cannot be reduced to Scripture, though it must always be held up to the light of Scripture.



Shortly after the split between Roman Catholics and the Orthodox Church, much of the former Byzantine Empire, including the Patriarch of Constantinople, fell under the control of Islamic powers, lasting until the Greeks threw off the Ottoman yoke in the late 19th century. (The Patriarchate of Constantinople is still limited by the mostly Muslim, though largely secular, Turkish authorities who preside over Istanbul.) During the same period, the Russian Orthodox Church was free of all Muslim control and or influence. In those circumstances, it was not possible to call an ecumenical conference, for political reasons.

Through most of the 20th century, the Russians, other Slavic Orthodox Churches, Romanians and Albanians, were under the control of Communists, which had the same effect.

The Orthodox hope to see an ecumenical conference during this current century, to help solve canonical problems such as the overlapping jurisdictions in the Americas and parts of Western Europe.

Hope that helps.

-Marvin (Ambrose)

Marvin:
Thank you so much for your help in my questions, but I would like to continue asking you, if possible, more questions about the Orthodox Church since there is so much to learn from her and the more I learn about her, the more I learn about my own Church. I believe there is alot of misunderstanding between the Catholic Church and several Protestant denominations and they are very skeptical about the Catholic Church and her positions. However, as I read and understand the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, there is no doubt that the fundamental teachings between both Churches are the true teachings of Christ and the Apostles themselves. I have a question regarding a statement you made.

"The Orthodox hope to see an ecumenical conference during this current century, to help solve canonical problems such as the overlapping jurisdictions in the Americas and parts of Western Europe. "

I know and understand that there is much that needs to be resolved in order for the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches to reconcile, but if there were to be a council as was suggested, would it be likely that the RCC be invited to be present, perhaps participate? If I am correct, the Orthodox Churches were invited to be present in Vatican II, but were not allowed to participate since both Churches are in schism. In addition, if a Pope were to call an ecumenical council and he invited the Orthodox Patriarchs to participate fully in the Council, would they accept the offer? Or what about if a Patriarch/the Pope called a Council in order to resolve the differences that exist between the two Churches, would the council even happen? In other words, basically what I want to know is that if an Ecumenical Council were to be called like Vatican II, on either side--RCC or Orthodox Church--what is the possibility of both Churches fully participating now and resolving several of the differences that exist between both Churches? I have seen the other forum where you are in discussion with Mary D. and David, and wow I never knew how different the views are between both Churches, yet at the same time, both maintain faithfully the Teachings of Christ--I think it is has come to quite a sad situation when people stop believing that Christ is in the Eucharist, that one is eating his soul, blood, flesh and divinity as one becomes a part of Him and He becomes part of us. That is my main question.

Though, if you have time, what is the icon you have on your avatar control pannel? Can you tell me a little about it's history?

Thank you so much for your assistance. I pray that God's will be done and ask for the intercession of Our Lady of Guadalupe that both Churches can be fully reconciled. Thank you once again Marvin.
--Benito[/quote]

_________________
--Benito
"We are not the inventors of our Faith; we are its custodians."
--Cardinal Francis Arinze

Christ is in our midst!

Hi, Benito.



Pretty slim for now. Given the ecclesiology of both, full mutual participation in an Ecumenical Council could only come after full Communion had been attained. Perhaps you had more in mind something like joint "consultations" aimed at ironing out the agreements necessary for such Communion? Even for that to happen, substantial changes would have to win general approval within either the Roman Catholic or Orthodox realms, or both. I suspect mutual change is where God is leading us, but I don't think it realistic to think full Communion between Orthodox and Catholics will occur in our life times. But then again, in my teens, I would have said the same thing about the dissolution of the Soviet Union and Soviet Block. I guess we just need to keep importuning the Lord in prayer.



I wish I were more knowledgeable about iconography. This one, I believe, is called the "Hodegetria," which means in Greek, "She who shows the Way," referring to the gesture of the Theotokos, directing our attention and devotion to her Son, who conversely, tenderly embrasces her with one hand, while extending His hand in a blessing of her and of us, who are reverencing the icon. Someone else on this board might be able to give a more detailed or more accurate account.

Godspeed,

-Marvin (Ambrose)

OK, never mind the "tenderly embracing" part. That's another icon, called the "Glykophiloussa" (the "Tender Kiss").

This is the icon of "Our Lady of Prepetual Help". The original was done by St. Luke the evangelist who gave it to Theophillus and was in a shrine in Constantinoble till it was sacked in the 15th century during the seige of that city, after which it disappeared.
This icon had many miracles associated with it and it is considered the oldest Christian Icon known to us of the Blessed Mother.

In Christ
Mary

“For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church” St. Augustine in’ Against the Epistle of Manichaeus called Fundamental’

Christ is in our midst!

I don't want to give offense to Mary, but I'm pretty sure the Roman Catholic image called "Our Lady of Perpetual Help" shows Mary's extended hand holding the hand (rather sentimentally) of the infant Jesus. It is based on, but not the same as, the Hodegetria, which is the Icon I use in my postings. In the latter, the Theotokos is gesturing toward Jesus, as is referred to in the Icon's name (Hodegetria = "She who shows the Way").

The website for "Our Lady of Perpetual Hope" Roman Catholic parish says this:

I have an Icon of our Mother of Perpetual Help from Conception Abbey in Eastern style. The Child is holding Mary's hand with both of His. The angels are closer to Mary's head and hold the instruments of the Passion - cross, spear, wine jug. One sandal hangs loose from the Child's foot. Presumably the angels - Michael and Gabriel - have been discussing the future Passion and Death with the Child and He has run to His Mother for comfort.

Incidentally, John the Baptist says that he is unworthy to loose the strap of Jesus' sandal. Someone noted that this icon reminds us of how often Mary loosed and fastened the straps of Jesus' sandals.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I know that Orthodox Church recognizes some saints [i.e. Constantine] that the Catholic Church does not, and vice-versa. Could someone please tell me in brief passages a couple of the Saints of the Orthodox Church, why they were canonized, what they did, and what specific area they are known to help [i.e., like in Catholocism, St. Thomas Aquinas is the Patron Saint of students]. Also, is the process of Canonization in the Orthodox Church the same as in the Catholic Church, or do they have any difference? Is there anyone, within the Orthodox Church, worthy of veneration in recent times [like in the Catholic Church, we have Mother Teresa]? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

_________________
--Benito
"We are not the inventors of our Faith; we are its custodians."
--Cardinal Francis Arinze

Recently canonized Orthodox saints: http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Feasts-and-Saints/OCA/index.htm

The process of canonization, and other issues: http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8044.asp

Patron saints of occupations and trades (not an Orthodox custom or tradition): http://www.oca.org/pages/orth_chri/Q-and-A_OLD/Patron-Saints.html

It sould be noted, though, that individual Christians are usually named after a Saint (or, sometimes, Feastday), at the time of their baptism and/or (in the case of converts) chrismation. (The Christian name I received at chrismation is Ambrose, after St. Ambrose of Optino.) Orthodox Christians traditionally celebrate their "namesday" (the feast of the Saint after whom they are named), rather than their birthday.

Khrestos Rozhdietsha

Hello All Here!!!!!!

This icon which west calls Mother/Lady of Perpetual Help, from my readings, I believe is known in east as "Mother Of God Of the Passion of Great Friday".

A priest once told me, that we in east have an icon of Mother of God for every day of the year but on Great Friday/ Holy Friday there was not an appropriate icon.

So St Luke ( who had nothing to do but write icons ) wrote this icon for this day. For Great Friday evening we have one called Epitaphios/ Plashchanetsya/ Burrial Shroud. This one also has Mother of God in it.


Tradition tells us that Jesus saw a vision of His passion and in His fear kicked off one of His sandles.

It is amazing that St Luke wrote so many icons. When did he have time to write gospels? ( I know...he himself did not write then )


Z Bohom

Kolya

Marvin [Ambrose]:

Thank you so much for answering my questions. I'm not so sure if this question can be answered but does anyone know out there if it is permissible to ask for the intercession of saints from the Orthodox Church? I mean, if a Catholic ask for the intercession of an Orthodox saint and vice-versa?

Marvin, Catholics also adopt saint's names upon their Confirmation--I'm not so sure if Charismation is the same thing, perhaps you can explain it. I'm set to do my Confirmation in April and I'll be adopting St. Juan Diego, which got me thinking about things.

According to the Catholic Church, private revelation is not necessary for the salvation of an individual--all one needs is the public revelation of Christ; however, private revelation helps stregnthen one's devotion to our Lord and deepen our Faith. Since I am a Mexican Catholic, devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe, the Patron Saint of the Americas and our Holy Saint in our quest to end abortion, is great. I was wondering if the Orthodox faith has had any kind of private revelation like in the Catholic Church--like Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, etc. If so, could you please tell me what it is and how it came about?

Also, why did you choose [if you got to choose] St. Ambrose? What attracted you to him?

Those are my questions for now. Once again, I thank you for your time in helping me understand the Orthodox Church.

_________________
--Benito
"We are not the inventors of our Faith; we are its custodians."
--Cardinal Francis Arinze

Marvin:

Upon looking at the links you provided, I noticed that the icons of the saints have something similar--they are holding a book, I believe it is the Bible, in thier left hand, and with their right, either they are holding an object or making a blessing. Seldom do I see an icon not doing that gesture. Could you tell me why?

Also, for St. Herman of Alaska, on his hand, the object on his hand appears to be a rosary. Does the Orthodox Church have their own special devotion to the Rosary and/or is it the same as the Catholic Rosary?

Also, browsing upon that website, I read an article about the influences the Orthodox and Catholic Church are making upon one another. One of them is the numbering of the Sacraments to seven. Some Orthodox Churches seem to have accepted that number. Considering the Sacraments were defined in the Council of Trent, after the Great Schism, do you think, by accepting the number of seven, the Orthodox Churches might be accepting an infallible truth [for us Catholics] of the Council of Trent?

Thank you again.

_________________
--Benito
"We are not the inventors of our Faith; we are its custodians."
--Cardinal Francis Arinze

Christ is in our midst!

Hi, Benito.



You've just about exhausted my limited knowledge about icons, friend. The gesture of blessing is almost used by a bishop (though it is also used in the icon of St. Jacob of Alaska; I'm not sure why). That particular way of holding the fingers imitates the Greek letters that spell "Christ." At the same time, the two fingers held together signify Christ's theandric nature (both God and man), and the there folded fingers represent the Trinity.

The Book represents the Bible, open to a page with writings that illuminate the life of the Saint. Occasionally, one of the Saints' own writings is quoted.



Actually, it is a prayer rope, or chotki (Greek Orthodox have another name for it), shown in many Icons of monastic and other ascetical saints. (Most prayer ropes are made from wool, but some are made with beads, as apparently was the one used by Saint Herman of Alaska.) The prayer rope is used in the recitation of the Jesus prayer. It is a tradition older than, and distinct from, the Western Rosary.



No Orthodox Council or Synod has ever formally defined the Mysteries as being exactly seven in number, and many Orthodox are reluctant to do so, for fear of thereby seeming to "demote" other ways that Christ ministers through His Church. If, though, we were to arrive at the definition, it would be because we felt it was true. Nothing to do with Trent.

Godspeed,

-Marvin (Ambrose)

Christ is in our midst!

Hi again, Benito.



Chrismation is the Orthodox sacrament that is called "Confirmation" by Western Christians. However, the Orthodox administer this sacrament at the same time as baptism whenever possible, even for babies. In fact, babies are also given their first Communion on the day of the baptism and chrismation, and they continue to receive Holy Communion thereafter.

Converts from other denominations who have already been baptized with water in the name of the Holy Trinity (i.e., whose baptisms are valid) are received into the Orthodox Church by chrismation and prior confession. (In some Orthodox jurisdictions, Roman Catholics are received by profession of faith and confession; some Orthodox accept the Roman Catholic sacrament of confirmation as valid).

Traditionally, ones saint's name is conferred upon one by ones priest or spiritual father or mother. However, my priest encouraged me to make a suggestion, which has become common practice. I was drawn to St. Ambrose of Optino because I felt he had successfully learned some painful lessons with which I continue to struggle, but which are rather personal. I appreciate your interest.

Godspeed,

-Marvin (Ambrose)

I should have said, "Chrismation is the name used by the Eastern Church for the sacrament that is called 'Confirmation' by Western Christians." No offense to Eastern Rite Catholics was intended.

Marvin:

I apologize, but I have some long thoughts that I would like a response:

I do not mean to be rude or in anyway insulting and I hope it is not taken that way, but when I talk to anyone about Christianity, be he Protestant, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, take your pick, all of them know the Pope. Of course, many would say the Papacy is a fraud and is un-Biblical, heresy, etc. but Christ did say that His Church would be seen by the entire world. The Pope is just that—he is the symbol, a powerful symbol that unifies the Catholic Church and the person who holds that office is seen by the world—whether or not people now in day in this decadent society listen is another thing, but the Pope represents us Catholics to the world. Here in Houston there are a couple of Orthodox Churches and plenty of Protestant ones, but very few people know about the Orthodox Church. When I was discussing Mary's perpetual virginity, someone, who knew very little Greek [Protestant], was trying to argue with me that 'adelphos' was used to mean that Jesus had other siblings. When I said that not only did the Catholic Church teach that that position is untrue, but that the Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchs who know better than anyone the mechanics and semantics of the ancient Greek texts, KNOW that Mary DID NOT have any children after Christ and teach the SAME position for the past 2,000 years. What I got was silence. He did not know how to respond. In other words, if I were to ask about Christianity to all types of Christians of different denominations or non-Christians, it seems that the Orthodox Church, although they know it exists, is in the back of their minds and few know the positions it upholds. It is easy for anyone to admire, insult, critique, etc. the Catholic Church because everyone sees it and it is precisely because of the Chair of Peter that the Catholic Church is known to the world. I guess what I want to point and make a comment about is that the Orthodox Church, when speaking about Christianity, is not in the mind of the average Joe. I understand that the Church leadership has been—until very recently—under the power of Muslim rule, Communism, etc. that they were perhaps unable to make themselves known to the world. In other words, why are the teachings of the Orthodox Church and its presence so unknown to the world? Perhaps I am being shortsighted and it is only in my case, but then again, in college, you have people from all over the world and all over the country. Very few people know about the Orthodox Church and her teachings. Some of them don’t even bother to learn about her because they think it is irrelevant. I apologize if that sounds rude, but few people know about the Orthodox and I would like to know what exactly is she doing to let her teachings and presence be known. If people saw and compared the teachings of the Orthodox Church and Catholicism, although they are different in many areas, the fundamentals are the same. A person’s mind might click that for the past 2,000 plus years both Churches have taught the Real Presence in the Eucharist, Mary’s perpetual virginity, etc., things that are considered a heresy in some Protestant denominations and might be led into the Church. Again I apologize if it sounds rude, but I await your answer.

May God bless us All, especially those in need.
May He let those souls who perished in the Space Shuttle Rest In Peace.
Lord Hear Our Prayers. Mater Immaculata Ora Pro Nobis.

_________________
--Benito
"We are not the inventors of our Faith; we are its custodians."
--Cardinal Francis Arinze

Christ is in our midst!

Dear Benito,

Your question did not strike me as rude, at all. You are right to mention the Ottoman/Muslim yoke and Communist oppression as having a tremendous dampening effect on the efficacy of Orthodox witnessing up until quite recent times. Add to that the time it took for immigrants from Orthodox countries to become "naturalized" enough in the West to feel emboldened in their missionary potential and responsibilities.

In the past two decades, we have seen a tremendous increase in Orthodox missionary activity in both the West and in formerly Communist countries of the East. We have also seen an explosion in conversions to the Orthodox Church here in the USA. We have also begun to speak up when we are left out of religious dialogue, or not counted as a significant voice in religious affairs in the USA.

It is not my place to play the prophet, but I predict the Orthodox will become increasingly voluble in our proclamation of the Gospel in coming decades. Indeed, that process is well under way: Witness the feature article by (Choura) Frederica Mathewes-Green in this morning's Dallas Morning News: http://signin.dallasnews.com/reg_signin.jsp?fw=http://www.dallasnews.com/religion/stories/020103dnrelguest.d2361.html
I would like to invite you to attend the Festival of Orthodox Christianity to be held at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas this coming Saturday. Here's a link: http://www.ntom.org/article.php/134/1/134/Festival-of-Orthodoxy/North-Texas-Orthodox-Missions

Godspeed,

-Marvin (Ambrose)

Thank you for your response Marvin.

As for your invitation to attend the Orthodox Church conference, I apologize, although I would love to go, I will have to pass since it is my birthday and I will celebrate it with my family and friends. I turn 20, no longer a teenager who can blame much on his age, but rather now, unfortunately an adult. [Let's just say it feels weird since I will no longer be a teenager and 20 just sounds so old, a bad ring to my ears , to me anyways. ]

Well, here comes another set of Benito questions and I hope you'll be willing to answer them . It is my understanding that the Orthodox Church has Patriarchs, bishops, who weild considerable influence and are deeply respected by the Orthodox community. First, how is the heirarchy designed and how is it decided who will become the next Patriarch? Also, if I am not mistaken, there is a Greek Orthodox Patriach, a Russian Orthodox Patriarch, etc., based on distinct Churches that form the Orthodox Church. Have Patriarchs in the past ever disagreed on certain important issues and how were they resolved? And here comes the big one: The Pope, the bishop of Rome, was regarded as the "First among equals" while the five major Patriarchs were around in the Early Church. Since three of them fell due to the Muslim conquest, for argument's sake, let us say that the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church are speaking and are close to unity. What does the "First among Equals" actually mean? How does this make the Chair of Peter different from the other Patriarch? How does it make the Chair the same? In other words, what makes the Chair of Peter so unique, from the Orthodox Church perspective, that it was named "First among Equals?" Well, those are my questions for now.

You can just send me links to go to other sections that discuss these topics if it is easier for you to answer. Well, thanks again for all of your answers and I hope I can continue asking you about the Orthodox Church. You are a valuable resource here in understanding her. Once again, thank you.

_________________
--Benito
"We are not the inventors of our Faith; we are its custodians."
--Cardinal Francis Arinze