Catholic Online Forum

Do the Orthodox wish for unity with the West?

I am not asking about devisive issues or anything of the sort. Not asking how unification could be done. Or what structure the resulting Church would have.

Just wondered if our Eastern brothers and sisters wish for unity as much as those of us in the West.

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Steve W

We are born to be happy and to live joyfully.

Steve,

I'm not convinced that many of us in the West even think about it on a regular basis. It may not be a constant topic of thought with most of them, either. Such a great thing ought to have a senseof urgency attached, but does it?

Kevin,

I thought it was one of John Paul II's goals was to have closer relations with our Eastern brothers and sisters.

I think one of the problems with the local laity (Catholics) is that we do not see many Orthodox so the issue really isn't "pressing" to them. However, many Catholics I known have always felt a close kinship towards the Orthodox.

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Steve W

We are born to be happy and to live joyfully.

Steve,

The answer will depend on which Orthodox group you ask. If unity means accepting the primacy of the pope my guess is that among the Greek and Russian Orthodox hierarchy the answer will be no. If we would be one among equals (that’s how the different Orthodox churches consider each other) there might be more interest. But not with the Russian Orthodox. At this point I think don't think that the Russian Orthodox leadership has much interest in unity. What will be interesting is how the Russian Orthodox Church wll respond if other Churches do join with us.

Of course I could be totally wrong.

If it does happen the first steps will probably be among the local communities. That is already happening. When a local Orthodox community was building a new church they used ours for their place of worship.

IMO it's in the devil's best interest to make sure that unity does not happen and he will work hard to keep us apart. And that should be enough incentive to get both Catholics and Orthodox to work for unity.

Personally I think that a great start would be to celebrate Easter on the same day.

Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie,

I understand what you mean about the Orthodox not wanting to accept the primacy of Peter. But aside from that issue, I was wondering if you felt that many Orthodox would like to see unity amongst Christians.

I hope you undestand what I am trying to ask.

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Steve W

We are born to be happy and to live joyfully.

I don't know. My initial reaction was no.

I recently had a discussion with a priest who is very well versed with the situation. He seemed to think that they Orthodox will seek unity with the Catholic Church sooner rather than later.

I hope he's right and I'm wrong.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie,




The few orthodox friends I have would likely answer no, or could care less. I also agree on the Russian Orthodox, my question then would be which Russian Orthodox Church? The Russian one or the Russian outside of Russia?

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Bob C

From what I gather from various discussions with Orthodox internet apologists, yes, the "most" difficult stumbling block to reunion appears to be the Pope's exercise, as currently configured by the Catholic Church, of his "Petrine Ministry."

Most, if not all, Orthodox give the Bishop of Rome only a "primacy of honor," as Effie has confirmed, i.e., the Pope is "equal" to all Bishops worldwide without the corresponding "primacy of jurisdiction." Thus, the Pope is regarded by the Orthodox as a mere "first among equals!"

Although there are extant written evidence that the Pope did exercise "appellate jurisdiction" vis-a-vis the other members of the "Pentarchy" and from disparate Sees in the then known world during the first millenium and "presidency" over most of the first 7 Ecumenical Councils of the united Church, today's Orthdodox deny them vehemently.

Some Orthodox may be amenable to the Pope's exercise of his "primacy of jurisdiction" as recently bandied about but not one Orthodox Church appear to agree to the "supremacy of jurisdiction" of the Pope. Much less would they agree to the full nature of the Pope's authority and powers as currently exercised: "supreme, full, immediate, and universal" without hindrance, not even by an Ecumenical Council. (Cf. Canon 330, et seq. of the Code of Canons.)

Tack on to this the infallibility of the Pope as defined by Vatican I and you get the Orthodox livid.

The late Pope John Paul II asked the Orthodox to propose a redefinition of how the Pope should exercise his charism as St. Peter's successor but no official proposal from the Orthodox (except for an article by an Orthodox prelate) was ever made. Hopefully, the International Commission on the dialogue between the Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church, to be reconvened this Fall in Serbia, could be tackling this issue during their sessions.

We like to say that the Pope is the visible sign of unity in Christendom. It is going well for the Catholic Church (East and West) but the Orthodox have none of it.

Personally, I subscribe to the Pope's authority and powers as currently defined and exercised. He is and should be the Supreme Pastor of the universal Church, the Servant of the Servants of God.

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Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Amado

JMJ

It is my impression that the Orthodox enjoy being courted, but see no advantage to themselves in a marriage.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Dear Joe:

Exactly!

They also like to point out that the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches, as sui juris Churches in the Catholic Communion, are merely pawns: "subjugated, dominated, and abused."

Thus, the Orthodox foresee themselves in the shoes of the Eastern Catholics, but wrongly perceived by them, I should add.

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Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Amado

Amado,

Is that really what the Orthodox say about the Eastern Catholics? If so, I'm stunned because the Orthodox are the ones who have a history of abusing them. All one needs to do is look at the history of the Soviet Union, espcially the Ukraine.



Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

JMJ

Effie and Amando - Re They also like to point out that the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches, as sui juris Churches in the Catholic Communion, are merely pawns: "subjugated, dominated, and abused."


JMJ

My impression from discussion with Russian Orthodox on another forum. Of course it is only a few individuals, not an Orthodox official, but the view seems unanimous. Their attitude reminds one of the Russian Patriarch's statements re the Latin Church in Russia.

Their latest is to accuse the Pope of repeating a batch of lies in his statement today on the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

Summary - not conclusive proof, but they do color my view of the Russian Orthodox Church - as I have told them several times.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I think that speaking with some orthodox in olthers forums, they aren´t any interested.

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Rafael

Dear Effie:

I would like to "tame" my observation re the treatment of the Eastern Catholic Churches by the "Orthodox," in conjunction with Joe's.

What I am referring to as the "Orthodox" in internet fora who have particular disdain for the Latin Church and the Eastern Catholics are mainly Slavic Orthodox: Russian Orthodox-MP, Russian Orthodox Outside Russia (ROCOR/ROCA), some members of the OCA (which considers the ROC-MP its mother Church), and some Ukrainian Orthodox (of various jurisdictions).

I have not found nor interacted with Greek Orthodox or Middle Eastern Orthodox who spew such hatred towards other Christians, particularly towards Catholics. These Orthodox are more ecumenically minded, in fact.

These current face-offs continue probably because of the current jurisdictional wranglings in Ukraine among the Orthodox and, of course, the "proselytism" accusation being made against the Catholic Chruch in Russia and in Ukraine, still considered to be a "canonical territory" of the Moscow Patriarchate.

In Ukraine, the largest of the 3 Orthodox jurisdictions is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-MP, which is a "canonical" branch of the ROC-MP. The 4th in the mix is the Catholic counterpart, the UGCC, which is in full communion with Rome.

Their apologists persist on calling our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters as "Uniates!" which is considered by the latter as exteremely pejorative. And they have added recently the appellations "Roman Catholics of the Eastern Rites" or "papal Catholics," which are also considered by Eastern Catholics, and by us Romans, very prejudiced.

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Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Amado

I think Orthodox christians would like to see unity not less than Roman Catholics, there are talks about this unity.

At big holidays such as Easter and Christmas representative of Roman catholic clurgy is officially invited to be present at Divine Service in Christ The Saviour Cathedral in Moscow, and Orthodox representative is present at Roman Catholic Service.
The new Pope's name is Ratzinger, and Russian Patriarch Alexy is Ridiger, sounds rather similar and some orthodox christians see it as a good sign.

But on the other hand, how can two churches unite untill they imagine this unit in different ways?
Roman Catholics see it as subjecting of Orthodox Church to the Pope.
Orthodox Church as the Pope becoming equal to Orthodox Patriarchs.

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Masha -for short.

I'll agree with Maria (and find it interesting that there really hadn't been any posting by the Orthodox on this, only Catholics saying what they think the Orthodox would say).

There are many of us who do want unity as much as Catholics do, but we have a very different vision of that unity. Because the visions are different, it can sometimes appear to each other as though the other side doesn't want unity because they aren't moving to conform to our view of unity.

In Christ,
Justin

Hello to my sisters and brothers in Christ,

I am an Orthodox Christian from Romania. I think that all the Christians are called to the unity, becasue Christ is One.

Church must be one with all the 7 Holy Sacraments. We may stay humbly around a table and look to the cup where it abides the Lamb.

Now there is a state of division and breaking. We are called to love God and each other.

Love is a commandment (see John 15), but not an option. And it is the key for the Heavenly Kingdom.

I think that before talking about primacy, filioque et al., we must know each other better. John Paul II did much to the direction of a sincere dialogue. For me he is a saint.

I think that there are some wounds coming from a long history, but we must forgive.

We must think that in the person who is in the front of us abides God. And God so loved the world, that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

We must have a common date for the Holy Pascha (Easter) and the same Divine Liturgy. This is the most important, the Divine Liturgy.

And always asking forgiveness from each other and striving to be humble and with love.

I am here to learn, to discover the riches of the Romano-Catholic Church.

May the Most Holy Trinity bless your soul and enlighten your hearts. Amin.

In the Risen Lord Jesus Christ, Marian +

If i'm not mistaken Orthodox Easter is celebrated 1)after vernal equinox, 2)after full moon and 3)after Jewish Easter.
And Roman Catholics don't take into account Jewish Easter (Passover).


I think there are no many posts because the majority Orthodox people don't speak English. (The situation on Russian Orthodox forum is even worse, i have seen very few Roman Catholics there).
And those Orthodox who speak perfect english seem not to be inclined to convert Roman Catholics or to argue about differencies. I think Orthodox would prefere to pray for unity rather than struggle for it.
P.S.
On forums sometimes appear diturbing persons who would shout much and argue trying to prove that being a Roman Catholic or Orthodox makes them holier than all people who don't belong to their confession together, very often they are nationalists too.
They might call themselves Roman Catholics or Orthodox, but i wouldn't judge whole Church by such specimen, imo it has nothing to do with religion, it is just personal qualities.

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Masha -for short.

I also hope the Churches can get back together.

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MY COMPUTER HAS BEEN HACKED!......i HAVE NOT BEEN ON THIS SITE SINCE THE LAST TIME I CAME ON TO GET PRAYER REQUESTS FOR MY ROSARY..SOME ONE ELSE HAS BEEN IMPERSONATING ME ON THIS SITE...IT HAS BEEN MONTHS SINCE I HAVE BEEN HERE

Dana

Do not seek to unite for the sake of unity, but fight for what's right and see who's on already your side. For example, in the fight to defend marriage from gay activists, the people who hate us most may end up becoming our best allies: http://defenders-of-marriage.blogspot.com

Same liturgy?

No, it cannot and will never be done! There are many liturgies celebrated among the Churches, East and West. All are "equal" in all respects.

Your liturgy is derived from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which was developed relatively later in Byzantium/Constantinople than the "older" litrugies of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria.

There are "differences" among a Coptic liturgy and a Byzantine liturgy and an Armenian liturgy and a Chaldean/Assyrian liturgy and a Maronite liturgy and a Latin/Roman liturgy. However, there is unity in diversity!

The Romanian Orthodox Church celebrates the Byzantine/Slavic recension of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, like all other Eastern Slavic countries. Churches in Africa, the Middle East, certain parts of Asia, and in some areas in the dispora celebrate a different form of liturgy. The rest celebrate the Latin/Roman liturgy.

Even if unity is achieved between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches, their respective liturgies will continue to be celebrated in the unified Church.

This is the case for the 22 sui juris Eastern Catholic Churches ("Orthodox in communion with Rome"). Each has retained, and continue to celebrate, its original and historic liturgy.

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Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Amado

Amado,

Quote:

Churches in Africa, the Middle East, certain parts of Asia, and in some areas in the dispora celebrate a different form of liturgy. The rest celebrate the Latin/Roman liturgy.

Most churches in Africa celebrate the Latin/Roman Liturgy.

Francis A

Dear Francis:

I agree with you!

In fact, since the majority of Christians in Africa are now Roman Catholic, the single largest liturgy celebrated there is the Roman/Latin liturgy!

However, in my post above, I was merely pointing out the incidence and presence of the various Eastern liturgies in Africa and elsewhere.

As far as the Eastern Churches are concerned, the Coptic liturgy and its recension, the Ge'ez, which are derived from the Alexandrian Rite, are predominant in Africa, as far as the Eastern Churches are concerned!

In short, the Byzantine Rite which produced the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, common to Eastern Slavic Churches, is not present in Africa wholesale.

Thus, Marian's assertion that the Divine Liturgy as celebrated by the Romanian Orthodox Church and other Slavic Orthodox should be the "norm" in a re-united Church is simply an impossibility and displays a lack of appreciation for the other Eastern liturgies.

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Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

Amado