Catholic Online Forum

I was curious. How is the relationship amongst Eastern Orthodox Churches. Is there harmony amongst Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, and the different Orthodox Churches?


Before I forget, what is the hierarchy within the Eastern Orthodox Churches?

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Steve W

We are born to be happy and to live joyfully.

Steve,

In the Orthodox Church, it is made up of individual national Churches such as the Greek or Russian or Serbian. Now it is important to understand that these are not different denominations by just different jurisdictions. (Kind of like the American Council of Bishops and the Canadian Council of Bishops and the British Council of Bishops) AT the lowest level you have the parish, then you have the diocese with a bishop. A group of dioceses form a synod or Church which are the collection of bishops which make decisions. Often at the head of this synod will be a Metropolitan (archbishop) or Patriarch. Now it important to emphasize that a Patriarch will not have monarchal control over the other bishops. rather he guides the bishops and calls synods. No bishop can interfare in another bishop's jurisdiction, even Patriarchs. In the Orthodox Church we believe that with each bishop you can have the fullness of the Orthodox Faith.

Now to the second half of your question. For the most part the Churches are in agreement. There may be a falling out here and there, but mostly it is due to politicals such as Moscow and Consnationople wondering which jurisdiction Estonia is in. There's also some difference in liturgical practices but this is due to culture. For the most part it is safe to say that all Orthodox Churches agree on the doctrine of our Church.

I hope this helps.

Daniel

Daniel,

Do you know if the Russian Orthodox Church is still split between those that rejected Communism and those that became part of the system?


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Yes. There is still a split. However, we are moving closer daily to reunion. There is still caution as there should be but it looks to me that Moscow and ROCOR will be reunited within 5-15 years. They are already aknowledging that we are valid and fully cannocal and have a place. Also, many of the Bolshevik priests are dying and Moscow is pulling back from ecumenicism. The hardest problem it appears is how to intigrate our parishes into whatever happens. We will probably not join the OCA, so outher's think that we'll become either Autocephalous or a foreign branch of Moscow.


For others, when the Bolsheviks took over Moscow Patriarch St. Tikhon ordered the bishops to preserve the faith (it is more complicated, but I'm simplifying it). The Church went and formed a jurisdiction known as the Russian ORthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR) dedicate to the Tsarist monarchy and the preservation of the Russian ORthodox Faith. We were accepted cannocity with Serbia and stayed there until the Communists took over Serbia. They went to their present place in New York where I attend at their Cathedral.

Thanks for asking and may God heal this split between these two Churches and thanks to all (esp. the former Pope_ that helped fight the horrible heresy of Communism.

Daniel

Daniel,

Thanks so much for your reply. It made prefect sense.

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Steve W

We are born to be happy and to live joyfully.

No problem.

Daniel

Since you are talking about Eastern orthodoc churches, I heared from a russian orthodox, that the russian orthodox church slpit unoficialy, a part the accepted communism, and the part that refused it , now another hidden issue pops out, is that most of the orthodox that refused communism, were forced to become orthodox, so this issue might affect the russian orthodox church .
Now about the Eastern orthodox and Oriental orthodox, OH boy, i thought the catholic/protestant relation is bad, until i saw the eastern orthodox and oriental orthodox issues. It is an issue of monophisim that oriental churches beleive in ( Syriac,Coptic,Armenain,Ethiopean...etc ) .
Also note what is written :


You find this at : http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/east_orth.aspx along other stuff. So I dont know what is going on with them, but it is bad, Please pray for their unity with each other and Us.

Thank you
Wisam

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IF I WAS NOT BORN CATHOLIC, I WOULD HAVE BECAME A CATHOLIC.

Wisam,
Rather, let us pray for right and orthodox (small O) belief first and then unity will come under its own accord.

Daniel

Daniel,
I have a feeling that me and you can be really good freinds, since i think that you are by far the only one that can answer me in the sense and tone that i want to hear.

To make your statement more accurate let me modify it and say :

"Rather, let us pray for our catholic orthodox (small C and O) belief first and then unity will come under its own accord. "
This way we are all happy

Wisam

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IF I WAS NOT BORN CATHOLIC, I WOULD HAVE BECAME A CATHOLIC.

I went to that orthodoxinfo.com site and I was quite saddened. there seems to be a lot of hostility towards catholics. i checked out the "about this site" and found that the webmaster is a protestant convert to orthodoxy and is a member of the ROCA. is it the same as the ROCOR?

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kai esesqe misoumenoi upo pantwn dia to onoma mou
et eritis odio omnibus propter nomen meum.
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake.

Luke 21:17

Wisam;

I went that site and I was very saddened at the hostility I found there, both towards Catholics and non-Chalcedonians. I clicked on the "about us" link and found out that the the webmaster is a convert from anglicanism to the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. are they affiliated with the ROCOR? and are they in communion with Constantinople?

I was wondering if anyone has noticed that the more protestants join the Orthodox Church, the more anti-Rome it becomes? some of the vocabulary employed, such as "papist" is straight from evangelical circles. It seems to me that if there is an influx of of these Christians into the Orthodox Churches it will involve them bringing theit anti-Catholic baggage with them. Whereas both Catholics and Orthodox are saddened by the Schism, the evangelicals are anti-Rome for its own sake.

Any opinions? I would love to hear from anyone on this, esp Orthodox.

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kai esesqe misoumenoi upo pantwn dia to onoma mou
et eritis odio omnibus propter nomen meum.
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake.

Luke 21:17

hmm, I wil call you stummer, because you left no name, sorry about that

Anyway, yes sir I noticed the Attacks in the site, but check any other site that talks about Eastern/Oriental Orthodox issues, you will find more hostility towards each other than against catholics, even though hostility as we all know does exist. But the point was to show people that the Catholic church is the Only church that has One Doctorine, One Leader. But when you have multiple leaders/Doctorines, you can not state wether a certain group is following you or no. If the Pope says This is wrong, then we all it is wrong, In the case of Orthodox churches, Greeks say yes, russians say no, copts says maybe, syriacs say almost .....etc. So you end up with many people whom are confused about their own faith. Even though i admitt that Eastern orthodox are close to us and they have valid eucharist.

the protestant issue, is totaly different, Catholics and eastern orthodox and oriental orthodox agree on it. So no need to go further into it. Also I think Lutherans and the reformed episcopeleans are 2 of 35 000 churhes that i could have a converstaion with.

Lately syriac orthodox are getting close to full communion with greek orthodox, for coptic orthodox, hmmm, i dunno what to say , but it is a hopeless case, i lived among them for a while and they prefer moslems over catholics, their patriarch ( they call him pope! lol ) attacked us on national TV few times, the Bishop Beshoy also id his part, it got to the point the moslems started to feel sorry for catholics becuase of the treatment they get from coptic orthodox. The good news is , the Coptic catholic church is growing so fast on the account of the orthodox counterpart.

Sound complicated eh ? i still think there is no need for divisions, they should all be One. Let us ALL pray for the unity of the church.


Wisam
P.S. Mind the typos, I do not like checking my spelling.

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IF I WAS NOT BORN CATHOLIC, I WOULD HAVE BECAME A CATHOLIC.

thank you for answering, Wisam.

I am fortunate that I work with a lot of Christians from the mid-east, esp. Maronites, so I get to hear from all sides.

My question was also about a splinter group of evangelicals who were taken in by the antiochan Orthodox church...it seems that they have now taken over this church in the USA and are using insults usually used by Jack Chick (whore of babylon, etc). as long as they are protestants it's one thing, but once they join/take over an Orthodox Church it risks poisoning the the well both Catholics and Orthodox drink from.

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kai esesqe misoumenoi upo pantwn dia to onoma mou
et eritis odio omnibus propter nomen meum.
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake.

Luke 21:17

oops, call me James. sorry.

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kai esesqe misoumenoi upo pantwn dia to onoma mou
et eritis odio omnibus propter nomen meum.
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake.

Luke 21:17

James,



I haven't seen that among the Greek Orthodox. Then again, I haven't met many converts to the Greek Orthodox faith. If the anti-Catholic Protestants who joined the church are making it worse, my guess is that it’s only a problem the US. The rest of the Orthodox world has plenty of anti-Catholic ugliness of their own to atone for. Any Orthodox will be quick to tell you about the sack of Constantinople that happened several hundred years ago. Yet when it comes Catholics being exploited and even killed in Russia and the Ukraine, as well as other Orthodox countries, they are strangely silent. I wouldn't be suprised if your average Orthodox in the US isn't even aware of it.

Personally I wish Catholics were more aware of the hardships and persecutions that our Easter Rite brethren have endured because of the Orthodox. And I pray that someday the Orthodox will have the courage that JPII had and seek forgiveness for what some of their members have done to our Eastern Rite brethren. I truly believe that this must happen before any unification can be possible.

Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Effie and James,
You must also note that Oriental Orthodox are more anti-catholics that some protestants. Personally i never met an anti catholic from greek orthodox. But i did from russians.
As a syriac catholic, we endured the worst from our orthodox brethern. They even used to snitch on us to the turks and kurds. It got to the point that used to help to kill our patriarchs! we spent few years with NO patriarch!!! at the end, guess what happened ? Their OWN patriarch, became catholic that was the funny part. But of course by that time syriac catholic numbres were down to less than 30% in turkey. After that the moslems announed JIHAD in all christians so we fled away from turks and kurds to end with arabs. was not better either. So now the syriac catholic are around 250 thousands and the orthodox around a million, catholics are growing because more orthodox are converting.

About the Antiochean protestant church, they split from orthodoxy, failed to establish their own church, and then joined the catholics. So now we have NO protestant denomenation in the Syriac Churches what soever.

I hope this long looooooong story answered you
thank you
Wisam

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IF I WAS NOT BORN CATHOLIC, I WOULD HAVE BECAME A CATHOLIC.

Thanks Wissam and Effie

You're right about the Greeks, My best friend is GO and he got into an argument with his priest over me being the godfather to his son!! the priest won, but I thought it wasn't personal. He was just following Canon Law. How could I, an Italian Catholic, see to the religious instruction of a child in the Greek Orthodox faith? He had a point.

Wissam,

I once met an Italian Jesuit who spent 20 yrs in one of Stalin's jails. he had gone to Georgia to work in an Eastern rite parish and was arrested along with the martyrs, both Catholic and Orthodox, of Communism. he was released the day Stalin died and was later told by the jailors he had befriended that that very date was originally intended to be his execution!

Effie,

the sack of Constantinople was indeed a tragic event of which all Catholics should be ashamed, but then again that was in 1204! the sins of the father should not apply to to his children, meanwhile, the massacre of Latin rite Christians in Constantinople of 1182 is ignored. Granted it was much smaller, but atrocities were committed nonetheless and Churches were desecrated.

I suppose the point I was trying to make is that while there are "cradle Orthodox" who are bitterly anti-Catholic, the US evangelicals who, realising the empitiness of their churches, are received by Orthodox Churches (and I am talking ENTIRE CONGREGATIONS. the evangelicals simply switch allegiance in toto, and their clergy begin wearing robes and beards instead of cheap business suits) tend to bring the "Luther-Calvin" type of anti-catholicism (for samples, type ian paisley in google.) to Ortodoxy, thereby attempting to hijack and put an end to the dialogue begun in the 1960's.

Most Orthodox see that that the FIVE Apostilic Sees should work to re-unite. Converts do not and would like to maintain this state.

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kai esesqe misoumenoi upo pantwn dia to onoma mou
et eritis odio omnibus propter nomen meum.
And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake.

Luke 21:17

People Do not forget, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox agree on the councils . The Oriental Orthodox only agree on the first 3. So that makes a difference, and explains why there are few anti-Catholic greeks.



PEace
Wisam

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IF I WAS NOT BORN CATHOLIC, I WOULD HAVE BECAME A CATHOLIC.

I think that ecumenism with orthodox is necessary and good, but like you say there are problems, but I am optimistic since 1964 the things have got better.

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Rafael

Catholic and Eastern Orthodoxy unity with have a big impact on our protestant brothers and sisters, which will attract a big number of them towards the unit. Not to mention , this will ease and stop the persecution of eastern catholcis and eastern orthodox in the east . Not to mention, our oriental orthodox brothers will be the first to join us ( Copts might not ).

we have to wait and see,

God bless you all
Wisam

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IF I WAS NOT BORN CATHOLIC, I WOULD HAVE BECAME A CATHOLIC.

This is an old thread; but, it suggests various differences between the Eastern Orthodox Churches. So, it won't be necessary to re-cover old ground; except, perhaps, to update the information.
Regarding the possibility of East & West re-uniting; we hear predominately from the Russian Church and occasionally from Constantinople. Rarely do we hear from the other Eastern Orthodox Churches. When Pope Benedict went to Cyprus there was, at least, one Bishop that did not want the Pope greeted with respect; showing that there still seems to be some desire for unity lacking in the East. While the Russian Church is by far the largest Eastern Church; it is not as ancient as many of the others. I have the feeling that there are those who are not all that agreeable to what the Russians decide on.
As such, can we really look forward to a re-union of East & West or "much of but not all of the East" & the West? If any of the small but ancient Churches reject re-union; it will it not seem to diminish the re-union?

Peace be with you, Frank

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Frank Russell
The more you learn; the more you learn that there is to learn!

Slava Isusu Khrestu

There is an interesting statement in you presentation," While the Russian Church is by far the largest Eastern Church; it is not as ancient as many of the others."

You say that the Russian Orthodox Church is the largest.

No, the Russian Orthodox Church ( ROC) is not older and you are correct. The Byzantine Church from Constantinople in Rus-Ukraina is much older. But sadly, historians read " Rus / PYC6. " as Russian which it is not. Rus was the name of ancient UKraine long before Moscow was.

Is it the largest because of the forced incorporation of the Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholic churches of Ukraine in the last century with the liquidation of hierarchs, priests, monks and nuns of both the Ukrainian Orthodox and Ukrainian Greek Catholics who would not submit to this forced situation? [ Yes,to-day the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church is free and functions but with the loss of many churches and monasteries. There are many situations in which the Catholics have simply said, " let us step back and begin again with out what is rightfully ours."

If the ROC were to set free this group forced into union and allow them to be the Ukrainian Orthodox or Greek Catholic that they were/are, what would be the size of this Russian Orthodox Church?

With the current warming relationship between Russian Orthodoxy and the Vatican, is it part of a plan in which the ROC would enter even warmer relations with Rome ...but...with the proviso that the Ukrainian Orthodox forced into union would not ever be considered as being given its rightful independent position in Ukraine?

Just think in terms of how much would be lost financially by the Russian Orthodox Church!!!! It makes many here think that the Ukrainians of both churches but particularly those of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church would not see Rome coming to their support and request or back their fight for the return of their religious freedom should the ROC make an objection.

Only time will tell how things will turn out.

Space Bozhe! / God save us.

Nykola

Indeed. See:

http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthread ... Post221939



That was one of the reasons that the MP and the ROCOR weren't reunited sooner.

This thread reminded me of the apparitions of Our Lady of Soufanieh (Syria) where the Blessed Mother is asking for the unity of the Catholics and Orthodox.
My understanding is that this apparition was approved by both Catholic and Orthodox bishops.
I have personally witnessed the oozing of oil from Myrna's hands in a Maronite Church.
She also gets the stigmata when the Orthodox and Catholic Good Friday is celebrated on the same day.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas