Catholic Online Forum

Hi all,

Since the Holy Father is attemting to rejoin the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches, what is the position on recently declared saints from the other Church? Does the Catholic Church recognize the new saints of the Orthodox Church? And does the Orthodox Church recognize the new saints of the Catholic Church?

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Andy

Dear AK,

I do not know about the hagiographical politics, but there are some general principles to keep in mind on which to base an answer:

1) There are few saints on the universal calendar of the Church as it is; that is, are venerated by the entire Church East and West.
2) The calendar of saints of a diocese or see is under the purview of the local ordinary, so it does vary from place to place.
3) According to Catholic teaching, the Pope is infallible in the proclamation of sainthood. Thus, canonized saints in the Catholic Church must be regarded as saints, though they do not have to be venerated in a particular Church's calendar.
4) Most saints of the Orthodox Church are canonized by acclamation - that is, by popular cults. So, like in the Catholic Church, a saint venerated in one area may not be venerated in another area, though they are recognized as saints.
5) Currently, I can think of two post-Schism "inter-Church" saints - St Francis of Assisi (Catholic) and St. Euphrosyne (Orthodox).
6) There is no schism in heaven.

If veneration of saints is understood and accepted to be under the purview of the local ordinary, there should not be a problem. No one will be forced to accept or venerate Saints they do not want.

Glenn

Glenn, I would have to agree, there is no schism in heaven. Also, since both Churches have true sacraments, there is no question that members of both Churches have all he graces and helps to get to heaven that the sacraments could offer.

There are many in the Orthodox Churches that have been martyred for their faith by the Communists and Muslims in their countries. Also, there are many Catholics who have suffered the same fate in the same places.

It is my understanding that the Orthodox must have miracles in order to Canonize a saint. If this is so, and the criteria is met, can these holy men and women of the Orthodox Church be recognized by the faithful of the Catholic Church on earth?

I know that the tradition in the orthodoxy says that the wanted people for the people are canonized, for example a russian soldier kidnapped by txetxenian terrorists and didn´t want to refuse his orthodox faith. And in the catholic part the orthodox saints are too our saints. And I am very happy for this.

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Rafael

I know that the Catholic Church normally recognizes the Orthodox saints.

The Russian Orthodox Church has, for example, a very rigorous process. The Orthodox do not distinguish between beatification and canonization, but they do distinguish local veneration and universal veneration, which amounts to much the same thing.

Fr. Z

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o{]:¬)

Fr. Z,

So for example, the Nicholas Romanov family, who were very recently canonized by the Russian Orthodox Church, would be recognized by the Catholic Church as true saints?

Andy

Andy,

That's a tough question.

As Father Z said, the practice in the Catholic Church is to "normally recognize the Orthodox Saints". This has been most obvious when various Orthodox communities have entered into union with Rome, forming the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches. Typically, Rome has made no demands on these groups that they cease commemorating or venerating those whom they have traditionally honored as Saints, except in a few rare instances where the individual was so antithetical to Catholicism that it would fly in the face of reason to have him or her venerated by Catholics. I'd give you an example, but my brain isn't functioning right now. (I would note that the Ethiopian Tewahado Orthodox venerate Saint Pontius Pilate, a commemoration that the Ethiopian Catholic Church was required by Rome to expunge from its calendar when the former entered into communion with Rome.)

The Romanovs are of a category of sainthood referred to by the Orthodox as "Passion-bearers", loosely defined as Christians leading exemplary lives who suffered a violent death but not directly for the Faith and thus not defined as "martyrs", in the traditional sense. It's not a classification of saints currently known to Latin hagiography. However, Rome's own understanding of martyrdom, often thought of only in the context of death for the Faith, actually includes 5 categories of martyrdom:

Martyrdom:

• in odium fidei
  from hatred of the faith
• in defensum castitatis
  in defense of chastity
• ex aerumnis carceris
  from the hardships of incarceration
• per testimonium caritatis fortis
  by witness of heroic charity
• ex acertatibus et vexationibusque pro fidei quibus pertulit
  by reason of the force and violence which were endured for the faith

As Rome typically has taken the a generous viewpoint with regard to veneration under a local cultus, I suspect that nothing would be any different in this case. There were, in fact, Catholic hierarchy present at the liturgical ceremonies in which the Russian Orthodox Church declared the Romanovs to be canonized.

Many years,

Neil

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"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community." Sayedna Joseph Tawil, 1st Eparch of Newton of the Melkites, 1970

Neil,

Thanks for the detailed explanation. Especially on the different types of martyrdom. It clears up some of my questions. Even though I am a Latin rite Catholic, my interest in the Romanovs come from family history. My grandmother's family excaped from Russia in 1912. Grandma's family came over from Germany with Catherine the Great to help settle Russia and to farm. Their family had a big farm and were considered very wealthy. Grandma had a brother, who was a Captain in the Russian army. He heard rumors of revolution coming, and warned the rest of the family to escape. They abandoned everything and came to the United States. Many of their relatives who remained in Russia suffered much under the Communists, and they sent word of many priests who were martyred in horrible ways. How they got word out, I don't know.

So you can say that the fate of the Romamnovs were intertwined with some of my own ancestor's history. I would bet that if my ancestors stayed in Russia, they would have been killed as well because they were very devout in their faith.

Andy