Catholic Online Forum

OK, I've got that, now.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Ian,



What do you think is the agenda of Mary's Advocates? And, what makes you personally uncomfortable with whatever you think is their agenda?

David

Does anyone know what portion of the declarations of nullity are for marriages contracted in the Catholic Church vs those conducted elsewhere. For those conducted elsewhere I particularly refer to those who were not Catholic when they contracted the marriage, but now wish to enter the Church.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

moderator's warning


As usual these discussions about divorce have broken down into a cyber shouting match and finger pointing, I will not allow this to continue.

It is safe to say that all of us know someone who has been involved in a divorce, some of you have also been involved. Everyone in a divorced family is a victim, if for no other reason that they lost the future that they had hoped for.

I have a family member going through a separation and likely divorce right now, she is an abused spouse, abused by her soldier husband who suffered traumatic brain injury (PTSD) in his fifth combat tour. I know she doesn't want the divorce but she has to protect herself and the children, with prayers and God's help it will work out.

The point I am trying to make is that we can and should discuss this rationally, but the next time there is a nasty post or a pointed finger I will lock this thread.

BobC
COL Staff

Bob,

You bring up a good point that I often emphasize and elaborate upon. Just as my signature quote refers to peace in the broad sense I believe that peace in the specific sense as well can apply to marriage.

When there is discord in a marriage it does not by default imply that the marriage may be null. Rather, it implies that there is a division of one or both spouses from God's plan.

These 'failed', and 'broken' marriages are in essence NOT peace -some are even termed 'dead'. It is my contention that somewhere along the way in marriage ministry that pastoral peace making was substituted for truth and this is why we find ourselves where we are now where it seems the marriage bond takes a back seat to personal happiness and well being as defined by civil society e.g. psychologists.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

This reason we need to get the Church off the sidelines is because with no-fault divorce, no attempt is made to determine whether one spouse is at fault. In states with pure no-fault divorce, even if there is a morally legitimate reason for separation of spouse, the divorce courts with their psychologist and guardian ad litems will dictate to the faithful spouse what will happen to the children. Just this week, I spoke to a woman in Missouri. Her husband has abandoned the marriage and acts like he's done nothing wrong. The woman is a mother of three young girls and she is homeschooling the oldest. Because her family is in no-fault divorce court, she has a government guardian making decisions about the education of her daughters. In all reality she is faced with the draconian decision a) put her daughter in institutional school though she is adamant that this is not in the best interest of her daughter or b) have the guardian tell the court to remove the daughters from her all together.

For those who marry in the Catholic Church, we are not allowed to file for civil divorce without permission from the Bishop. We are only allowed to seek separation decrees (including findings for upbringing of children and support) that are not contrary to divine law. (http://www.marysadvocates.org/syllabus/ ... edivinelaw). The Vindicate Rights Petition that started this thread is an attempt to have the Catholics in the U.S. follow our own canon laws.

In the case with a truly abusive husband, the divorce courts in Ohio an other states will split the property equally, so the faithful wife and dedicated mother will lose her home because she can't afford to buy out the half given to her husband.

Moderator's Comment:

Dear birkut,

Your most recent response indicates that you understand neither this forum nor the people who post here. I'm moving that post and I suggest that you take the time to read and participate in other threads.

I strongly suggest you take the time to find out who we are and what we're about.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

The fact that a couple or more from Mary's Advocates are in this forum, especially pushing their line of argument relentlessly in this thread, and they are here only when such a thread is created, is enough to convince me that I don't trust their objectivity.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Hello Ian in DC,

Can you imagine that the Pope, in 1983, added sections in canon law to protect children and faithful spouses from no-fault divorce but the Canon Law Society of America ignored those canons? Mary's Advocates is a website and a non-profit educational organization. It doesn't have members. I am the creator of the website. If you find me, or people like me, arguing relentlessly in support of the Canon Law promulgated by the Pope, that is a compliment. It would be interesting for you to describe anything specific about my comments about which you are uncomfortable.

Bai Macfarlane

Bai,

First of all, I am not in DC. Those are the initials of my name.

But thank you for finally signing your post after four years and we finally know who you are, the founder of Mary Advocates. It does not really matter that yours is a non-profit educational organization, I stand by what I have said.

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Ian,

It would seem that Mary's Advocates line of argument is upholding marriage and the family. I've read where one good priest said, in regards to Mary's Advocates mission (or agenda, if you'd prefer), is the family unit, husband, wife and children. I'm not sure what's there to be uncomfortable with that.

If you don't trust the objectivity of those fighting to defend the indissolubility of marriage, on sound biblical and magisterial teaching, what are those of us who do, to think of those who are staunch defenders of the status quo of tens of thousands of annulments each year in the U.S., as a good thing? It seems that many Catholics, yes, even some on COL, have a default view of annulments as a great good. Because I've shared some of my story, I gave an update last summer that the Court of First Instance issued an affirmative decision. As evidence that some take this default view, I received congratulations.

Until one walks in the shoes of those who have been faithful spouses, yet abandoned by husbands or wives, and instead of compassion and support from those in the Church that we love, we are treated as pariahs, one has no idea what our lives are like. It's easy to say that this perception is erroneous or just "a figment of our imaginations," but the disrespect, bordering on contempt that some of us have experienced at the hands of tribunals is very real. Whether you or others believe this or not, doesn't change the reality.

David

And here we're going to end the conversation, at least for now.

Church law isn't some sort of weapon to be used to punish our spouses.

Neither is Church law to be bent into some sort of licence to do whatever we please.

Perhaps in the future we'll allow this line of conversation again, so in the mean time, lets consider questions like what is really happening and what concrete things the people in the pew should be doing about it.

Also in the meanwhile, let's pray for the people on both sides of all these marriages as well as for the children. As we've seen in this thread and others like it, there's an incredible amount of hurt and rage involved, and only the grace of God can alleviate that.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)