Catholic Online Forum

Dean suggested I start a new thread based on something I said in another thread.

I have the impression that the catastrophic failure of catechesis that Pope Benedict wrote about more than once may have contributed greatly to huge increase of Catholic marriages ending in divorce.

A few years ago one of my family's best friends went to the Cana conference just before her wedding.

This conference was led by two lay people who worked for the Diocese. There were several couples attending and the conference was quite helpful and went quite well.

The focus was about "compatibility" being "the most essential" in order to succeed in having a good marriage.

Our friend said that was the only topic in all the sessions.

That there was nothing said about a Sacramental Marriage, just doesn't seem right to me.

I'm interest in hearing your experiences in this regard.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

That doesn't seem right to me, either, Mary.

Recalling back to our own pre-Cana, I'm not sure the words "Sacramental Marriage" were used, and if they were, I'm not sure I would have been of a mind to understand or follow.

I do recall that most of our course was about remembering to extend kindnesses to each other in every circumstance, which is a Biblical concept. We were told to be considerate in all the various issues we covered... money, kids, the bedroom, household chores.

I think that's an important lesson. I don't know how the other couples in our class have done, but for 21 years we've sent Christmas cards to the priest who married us and for 21 years he's sent one back. I think he was a little amused to see how we've turned out so far. Of course, out of three weddings at that church that day, we were the only one with a full Mass, which was non-negotiable for me for reasons I didn't understand at the time.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Cana Conferences, Engage Encounter etc were all very good. However, when they made them mandatory they expanded too fast; so many had poorly trained leaders. Not enough effort was put into getting and training good leaders.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Hello Mary,

I do not want to be mean here but I do not understand how Catholics can say that marriages "end in divorce."

Our bishop has a U tube video out saying "We all know that marriages end in divorce."

Sadly, just do a quick pole of people who say that they are Catholic and ask them if it is okay for their civilly divorced friend or family member to start dating. The vast majority will say yes. This is because most falsely believe that marriages end in divorce.

I am guessing that you do not but would you mind clarifying your statement please? I just hate the thought of some little child's mother getting on here and reading something that reinforces in her mind that she is no longer the wife to her husband and so therefore does not need to be open to reconciliation and the reuniting of her family.

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

Bryan,

Give it a break would you.

_________________
Bob C

Mary,

Every diocese is different, so I can't speak to your friend's situation. But I can tell you what happens here. We have two parts to marriage preparation- pre-cana (or engaged encounter) and several meetings with a priest or deacon. Generally discussions about marriage as a sacrament occur when the couple meets with the priest/deacon.

Pre-Cana consists mostly of married couples who share their experiences about marriage. While the sacramental aspect is discussed, the main topics are of issues that the couple will face when married. The talks include things like decision making, dealing with conflicts, finances, NFP, sexuality, and spirituality, just to name a few.



If there were only two people leading the discussion, that might explain why they only heard one topic. In my diocese, and those around us, each team consists of several couples. There is no way that one couple could do it all. Of course it's also possible that your friend tuned out some of the talks. That can happen too.


Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

I forgot one thing.

I can't remember a lot of what was discussed when we went to pre-cana before our marriage - it was a long time ago. The only thing I remember was being surprised at how many couples hadn't talked about finances. It's amazing how many engaged couples don't discuss very important issues such as finances, raising children and religion.

At work when a bride to be calls to book a wedding date one of the questions I ask is what faith their future husband is. It never ceases to amaze me to hear a bride to be say I don't know. For far too many young adults religion is not an important part of their lives.



Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Hi, Bryan...I do not see you as being mean...

However, what you are saying here is not at all in sync with this topic.

Btw, I really like your signature statement...LOVE SO AMAZING

I'm wondering how you live it in your everyday life...and do you in some way or another silently pass it on to the people you encounter?

That might make a great thread.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Greetings Effie...

Actually I'm not looking for anyone to comment on the pre-cana situation I spoke of.

What I'm interested in is people writing about their own experiences in pre-cana; was there any real catechesis involved, catechesis that was truly in sync with what the Church actually teaches?


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

To put a finer point on my own recollections, Mary. I don't think what they told us was exactly "catechesis," although some of it might have been. I remember something more like counseling, where several couples described the sorts of situations families got in and various ways to deal with them.

On the other hand (and this was 21 years ago), I can't think of anything they told us that was not in line with Church teaching. They even discussed NFP briefly as the only proper option.

I know a lot of people in those days were already saying things like, "The Church has no business in your bedroom," but that's not what we were told.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Thanks, Rose...yours is similar to a few others I know, especially in regards to having a priest there. To me, that alone is a major part of true catechesis.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Mary,



Pre-Cana is not designed to be a catechetical program. It's purpose is for married couples to share their personal experiences with engaged couples in order to help the engaged couples be better prepared for situations that they will encounter in marriage. One goal is to get couples to communicate. As I mentioned in my previous post it's amazing how many couples don't discuss major issues such as finances, how many children they want to have or the importance of religion in their lives. That's not to say that catechisis is not part of the program. It is. How much will depend on the topic. A discussion about Natural Family Planning and artificial contraception is going to discuss Church teachings more than a discussion on finances will.

In my first post I mentioned a list of topics that can be found in the programs in my diocese. They include things like Natural Family Planning (the Church's teachings on artificial contraception is part of that discussion), decision making, conflict resolution, sexuality and spirituality. All of them are helpful and necessary.

When I'm dealing with engaged couples at work they often ask why we have marriage prep programs. I tell them that while their "day" is important, we are more concerned with the lifetime and that is the purpose of all of the marriage prep (both pre-cana and meetings with a priest) programs.

Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Rose,



You would have loved our Natural Family Planning talk. My husband and I start off by saying that when we first heard about NFP we thought that the Church had no business in our bedroom. It disarms the couples because that's exactly what most of them are thinking. I can see by the changes in body language that once they know we understand, they are more willing to listen to how we got from "the Church has no right to tell me" to realizing that "the Church was right".


Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

We went through private preparation classes with a priest. He didn't require us to go on any retreats or to any classes beyond that. We were both practicing Catholics, a few conversations with us and he said he knew we understood what we were doing and we committed to sacramental marriage. I do wish we had learned NFP before getting married, but have learned it since.

I do remember we did the FOCUS test, which I found to be a waste of time. We had already discussed everything the test covered. I got some great advice from some of the forum members here and I think I went into marriage as prepared as any one person could be. It was still hard the first few years. I am sure my husband would say the same.

I think it's a shame that there is not more private instruction, although I understand why- large parishes, time constraints, etc.

_________________
God bless,
Krista

Happily celebrating twelve years of lurking.

I agree about the FOCUUS test. Someone I know gloated that they had a higher score than we did, but their marriage ended in divorce. It turned out that she wanted to be married more than she wanted anything to do with him. I've always suspected that she gave the answers she thought she was supposed to give so they'd let her get married instead of telling what she really thought and felt.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Effie, 'Catechesis' has a much deeper meaning. Catechesis should 'show' God...if our lives don't show God our words never will.

For my husband and I, our priest's very presence said far more than words ever could. could.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Hi, Krista, it's good to have you here posting again.

Thank you for sharing your very positive experience; I believe others, myself included, will benefit from it in one way or another.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Hey Mary, thank you for the kind response. After my first confession a few years back, part of the penance I was to do was pray the prayer of St. Francis. I now pray that every day. I fall so short of achieving it but it is something I hope to continue to allow Him to bring me closer and closer to... being an instrument of His peace (not peace as the world understands it).

"Where there is darkness let me sow light"

I have seen several people whom I truly love infected by the "plague of divorce." They believe that their civil divorces "ended their marriages." For whatever reason our Blessed Lord has led me to sowing light on this dark lie.

As another poster on here has noted, the words we use are so very powerful. Hearing words can produce thoughts... and...

“Sow a thought, and you reap an act; Sow an act, and you reap a habit; Sow a habit, and you reap a character; Sow a character, and you reap a destiny”

I realize that it isn't the topic of this thread and I realize that many will tire of hearing it but we Christians must stop using words that indicate that civil divorce has the power to end a marriage. If the words "Catholic marriages ends in divorce" shows up on a thread about puppy dogs then it seems right to correct it on the thread for puppy dogs. For when this thought is sowed... we reap a destiny of a divorce culture and many Catholics will continue to look no different than the world while falsely believing that they will have a different judgment than the world.

How to "live it every day"..
I am no expert but I believe part of it is being a living witness to the Truth of the indissolubility of marriage. That one can, through the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, remain faithful until death to a prodigal spouse.

Wearing your wedding ring is one way to "silently" witness to the truth that although someone has civilly divorced you, you are still married. It sometimes leads to questions, "I see you are wearing a ring, I didn't know you got remarried!" A perfect opportunity to witness to the Truth with words!! (Although I recently read some article about unmarried guys wearing wedding rings just to have better luck picking up girls!!)

Relating it back to this topic... I'm not sure why all this couldn't be part of getting two people "in sync" from the beginning. Sharing with them that although you have been trained by the best trainers in the world about what a Sacramental marriage means and although you have tested to be peas and carrots on the FOCUS test, you are still going to be targeted by the prowling lion, the father of all lies. He will still try to get you to think that you can separate what God joins. You cannot, however, and if your spouse one day thinks that he or she can, then it will be extremely difficult but you are to emulate the father with the prodigal son and be open to reconciliation if your spouse repents of the ways that are leading to destruction. You are to emulate our God in His relationship to Israel and always consider yourself to be the husband to your lost spouse. It will be difficult but it will make all the difference in the world... the next world that is;)

Bryan

LOVE SO AMAZING

Mary,



Sorry, I didn't know how you were defining Catechsis. I was using the more traditional definition of teaching the faith. Of course God must be included in the program. I can't speak for anyone else, but in my experience, (and I've been involved in two different pre-cana ministries) the love of God was present in every couple's talk. Not to brag (it's hard not to brag about my pastor), but my pastor does an outstanding talk to couples at pre-cana sessions.


Effie

_________________
“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

Every training class at the parish is a form of catechesis when you really think about it.

But there's too often a disconnect in our minds and hearts between learning what the Church teaches and how it relates to our lives. A Pre-Cana class should may not necessarily be what the Church teaches, but it should be how what the Church teaches relates to our married lives.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Well stated

_________________
Bob C

Effie, it reminds me of the Bible. How many times do we see it described as, "the Word of God" and how few times do we see, "Jesus is the living Word of God".

We have to become that "living Word of God" and bring it to the world by our lives.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Definitely...thanks, Rose & Bob.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Rose, what does this mean? Are there weddings with full Masses and weddings with ... what would be the other Catholic kind? How did you know it was non-negotiable but not why?

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace,

A wedding may take place within the Mass, or without the Mass.

Weddings without the Mass are often conducted when there is a wedding between a Catholic or a non-Catholic Christian, or between a Catholic and a non-Christian.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That must have been a very powerful experience for you, Bryan Thank you for sharing it with us.

Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Interestingly, although my (Catholic) wife and I (Jewish born) were married by a Priest, we did not have to go through any counseling sessions prior. The ceremony was performed jointly with a Rabbi, and the Rabbi did have one session with us. Mostly though, his only aim was that we agree, before we married, how we would raise the children. We had already done that.

To borrow from Aristotle who said that the "law is reason free from passion" I kind of think that way about a good marriage. It has to be formed on reason free from passion. Passion clouds judgement. I can't comment on the spiritual foundations, though it seems many of you have already eloquently done so (here and in other threads).

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Stephen C
Boca Raton, FL

We had the full wedding with wedding Mass. The other two couples married at that church that day just had the things specific to the wedding, vows, statement of consent and those things.

I knew I wanted the full wedding with Mass because it just seemed better and I tend to look down on weddings that are ten minutes long. I learned as I was older more about how a marriage is supposed to be a snapshot of our relationship with God and so having the Mass is a way of reminding ourselves of perfect love.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Rose,
Aha! Now I understand. (Dean only answered one of the questions).
I was thinking maybe your parents had told you that you had to have it.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

I only answer the questions to which I know the answer.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Stephen, thank you for sharing a bit of your marriage with us. I hope your marriage continues to thrive.

My husband passed away in January, we would have celebrated our 56th anniversary this past May. He sure was and still is a great inspiration for me and our family.


Your quote from Aristotle is interesting and it reminds me of something Pope Benedict said recently, "Charity without Truth slides into sentimentalism."

I'm thinking I will learn something from both of them that will enable me to love my neighbor in a deeper way.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

Thanks, Mary. Good to be back.

_________________
God bless,
Krista

Happily celebrating twelve years of lurking.

Sorry for the drift, but I am sorry to hear of your husband's passing, Mary. I will keep your family in my prayers.

_________________
God bless,
Krista

Happily celebrating twelve years of lurking.

I recall reading that if one party is a non-Christian the marriage cannot be in a mass, since it is not a sacrament. Don't remember where I read it, and can't find it now.

I know that, if one party is not Catholic, we recommend that it be without a mass. It is awkward to declare that now the two are one, but only one can receive the Eucharist.

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Thank you, Krista. That's Fred's photo as my avatar...

Btw, I simply cannot remember your sweetie's name.


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

When my lovely bride and I were married in 1959, I was not Catholic and we received the Sacrament and a Mass. If memory serves, that was Monsignor Price's idea.

I certainly had no say in the decision but I'm glad it worked out that way!

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Well, maybe the Holy Spirit had whispered in his ear and assured the monsignor that it was going to be okay with you.

I know. I know you don't go around making stuff up.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

This is my point. People want to have a sacramental marriage but they are not taught the essentials, do not learn to live them, and so are ill equipt to meet the requirements for creating a sacramental marriage during their wedding.

Solve the up front issues and it will be much better down the road.

Compatibility is important, marrying a person who is totally wrong for you makes marriage unnecessarily difficult. But it is not the be all and end all of the sacrament.

If by compatibility they are talking about mutual basis for marriage, similar beliefs, same church affiliation, basic values that are compatible... a person may be "in love" but that is NOT the best criteria for marriage-- character of both individuals counts too.

Our people enter the married state without preparation and then people get up in arms when their marriages fail-- we must fix the root causes of divorce. Correct the root causes and the rest will begin to correct itself.

_________________
K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

Actually, all the good stuff in this thread that has been suggested be included in the pre-Cana sessions should be included in any high school religious education classes (if your parish is lucky enough to have one) and in youth group discussions (perhaps even in the confirmation classes). By the time most couples have become engaged and are "forced" into the pre-Cana sessions, pre-Cana is just a hoop through which to jump; the decision to marry has already been made; and couples are less into hearing about difficulties than they are about planning the wedding. I have found with my own children that they are always more open to hearing my side of the issue when we discuss it before the issue comes up and before they have made a (wrong) decision on their own. We all know that many, if not most, of our children will get married one day. So, for that matter, PARENTS, START THE DISCUSSIONS NOW, rather than wait for after the dating starts. You don't need special training. Just rely on your wisdom.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Jim:

I'm not challenging your memory, but I just want to say that in 1959 it was strictly forbidden, under pain of suspension "a divinis," for a priest to offer Nuptial Mass when one of the parties was a non-Catholic. And in 1959, priests were pretty obedient to these rules, and a bishop would not have hesitated to inflict this penalty, no matter how respected the priest was.

In fact, I know couples who were married in 1959 and the priest would not even marry them at the altar, but took them to a side altar, or in some cases, just performed the wedding in the rectory parlor/office.

Since everything was in Latin, and you were not yet aware of the difference between a full Mass and the ritual without Mass, or even a chasuble/alb as opposed to cassock, surplice, and cope, you might have mistaken the pomp and vestments, and all the Latin being rattled off, as a full Mass when it was more of a ritual without Mass.

Even now, the Mass is not supposed to be celebrated when one of the parties is non-Catholic. It is not merely discouraged--it is not supposed to be done. And this is not to avoid hurting feelings, but to communicate in the liturgy that the Church does not at all encourage marriage with non-Catholics.

This is not because there is anything wrong with the non-Catholic, but to honestly confront the issues that difference in religion usually means that various issues between the couple will not be in sync.

Of all the Catholic problems, the one which is most grave, and in complete shambles, is the Catholic attitude toward marriage. It is not an exaggeration to say that Catholics are usually clueless about marriage, and haven't the faintest clue about what it means to contract a sacramental marriage. It is no wonder that tribunals crank out annulments like the Feds crank out new money.

_________________
Sincerely in Christ,
Fr. Angel

Dean, when my children were in the early teens, A 16 yearold friend of my son came over. We invited him to stay for supper.

At one point he said, "you guys are strange...you all like each other." Then he added, "you gotta be the last family in the whole world like that."

He looked as if he was about to burst into tears.

My son, who even to this day is a champion tension breaker, quickly replied, "Rumor has it that there is another family like this in Detroit."


Mary

_________________
"Those who encounter the Risen Jesus
and entrust themselves docilely to him have nothing to fear.
This is the message that Christians are called to spread
to the very ends of the earth." Benedict XVI

I'm sure you are right, Father Angel. I certainly wouldn't have known the difference and Monsignor Price was a very orthodox (and taciturn but with a heart of gold) Irish Priest who certainly wouldn't have offered a forbidden Mass.

After I converted and started teaching Religious Ed in Christ the King parish, founded by the good monsignor in the 1940s and under his guidance until he died some thirty years later, I got to know him quite well and he remains one of my very favorite priests to this day.

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

I agree totally. I know with my older children I spent a lot of time talking and teaching about the sacraments, but I think only the older one was actually listening. However, the younger one did eventually get with it and go to classes at the parish near where she was living. I think that kid understood what was expected and made a good sacrament when she married.

It is not easy to be the lone voice of catechesis and way too often parents ARE the lone voice. If the parents are not teaching and disciple-ing their kids, then the formation those kids are getting is from the world because a once a week catechism class is not formation, it is just information. A worldly formation is not going to help them make a sacramental marriage.

I think that to be "in sync" it is essential that the young people be given good catechesis AND formation in living the Catholic teachings. Protestants call it being "discipled" meaning both taught the scriptures and taught how to apply them to real life situations and how to use them in making informed decisions--in other words, application! As Catholics we do a horridly BAD job at both catechesis and at teaching people to apply the teachings in their daily lives, with real world examples and with a clear message that if they are not living the teachings to the best of their ability then they are in a way rejecting Christ.

I think if two young people discerning whether or not they have a vocation to marriage are well catechized and have been formed into living those teachings well, then they will have a much better chance of being "in sync." If by "in sync" you mean two people approaching life in a way that fits together at the foundational level of how they live their lives.

I told my kids to never forget "Character Counts" because a person with a poor character is less likely to fulfill the requirements of the sacrament.

I also told my kids repeatedly that one need not even so much as TOUCH the other person to make a good decision about whether or not that person is someone to whom you could spend your life married. All this business I hear about premarital sex (or at least kissing) being essential to know if you are compatible is hog-wash-- you can just sit across the table from a person of the opposite sex and know without touching that you WANT to touch them--your hormones will tell you just fine!

Friends I know who discerned without touching and saved the first kiss for the day they got engaged tell me that they knew before they got engaged that they were attracted, and the first kiss confirmed it, then they each went to different schools and tested their commitment by spending months apart. The people I know who did this are still married with a passel of children.

The world is telling our kids to have sex, to live together, and to contracept-- so unless we as a Catholic people are being loud, clear and frequent teachers of Catholicism there will continue to be problems with marriages failing to be sacramental.

_________________
K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com