Catholic Online Forum

(Side note - where's the best forum for topics regarding defending traditional marriage in civil law?)

From:
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/05/1 ... ry-debate/



Be careful, my friends. Sure, the government can't come after you for what you say here (well, unless you live in Canada, the UK, or probably some parts of Europe), but your employer might.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

I don't see why it can't be in this section, so have moved it here. Appropriate forum in my estimation.

_________________
Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Sounds good, Ian.

_________________
Jeff Stevens

That's it? That is ALL he said and he got fired?
Why? He didn't say anything bad, incite hatred, slander, ... traditional marriage is still legal, isn't it?

There was another scary one this week where a guy was bullied into resigning from a position with the US Olympic team because "it was revealed that in 2008, he donated $2,000 to the successful campaign for Proposition 8 in California - a ballot initiative that overturned a Supreme Court ruling that permitted same-sex “marriage.” He has also participated in marriage rallies in the past."

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pro-ma ... sm-from-ga

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

On the evangelical talk radio show of Dr. Michael Brown this week a teacher called in from Hawaii. In 1995 she taught at a public HS there. Some of the players on the football team knew she was a Christian. They reported to her that some allegedly gay player(s) had groped them. She reported it to the principal. There was a teacher at the school who led a gay club on the HS campus. He got her fired. She said she gave up because she could not afford a lawyer.

I'm guessing that perhaps the principal or other influential teachers might have also been LGBT activists or at least clandestine supporters.

If this had been heterosexual harassment it probably would have been disciplined quickly. My guess is that homosexual harassment will have to become very commonplace before the tide begins to turn. I think demographics and recent surveys of the younger generation make gay marriage inevitable. I think there's more hope that something can be done to mitigate abortion. (Human sacrifice on the altar of pleasure.)

I think the battle was already lost decades ago. What were the top TV shows back in that 1995 period about? Friends? Jerry Seinfeld? Who was sleeping with whom, that's what. Maybe the dam broke somewhere between Billy Graham in 1949 and Jim Bakker (PTL) in the 80's. Graham's ministry had made it a rule that adults of opposite sex who were not married to each other would NOT be alone together. Bakker was caught with a prostitute. Then convicted for financial fraud.

The morality of Friends and Jerry Seinfeld show is already kosher in USA:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/?ChartID=415

Maybe the USA has already crept onto the ash heap of history? Africa has already sunk so low, maybe it has to go up?

_________________
David H.

The PC motto: "I'll support to the death your right to agree with me."

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

In most other cases COL posters have supported the absolute right of employers to terminate employees for any reason they see fit, or for no reason. And it seems as though people in the entertainment business are often terminated for no apparent reason.

Should the government interfere in this case on behalf of the employee?

Jeff, you recently lost a job. Did your employer present a valid reason, or did they just give you notice?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I don't know of any poster on this forum who supports the absolute right to fire people for "no reason", and much less out of bigotry. Unlike socialists and other statists, Catholics (should) believe in liberty, and liberty has rules, which in this case fall under the concept of "rule of law". There must be just contracts that preserve the legitimate rights of both the employer and the employee. However, the hypocrisy here lies with those who will not fire (and much less punish) and in fact will force Christians to hire perverts, radicals of all stripes, flag-burners and anti-christian bigots, and will protect the alleged "rights" of pornographers, drug and prostitution traffickers, pro-terrorist groups and so forth. The same bunch of hypocrites who accuse us of paranoia when we denounce the blatant anti-Christian bigotry in our culture and laws are ready to fire a man for daring to speak - to tweet, in fact - of true marriage. They are those who have to give explanations, not Christians who protect and cherish all legitimate rights of all people.

Now in a moral and just society, speaking in favor of marriage can never be a legitimate reason to fire anybody unless such speaking takes place in ways and moments that affect the ability of the employee to perform the duties for which he's being paid.

In an amoral and unjust society like ours, if I am a hotel owner and I can be forced to have guests who behave in ways offensive to my conscience, if I cannot fire people I don't want to have in my shop or farm, then people who support true marriage should not suffer discrimination for what they think or say either. But I know full well that you cannot expect relativist hypocrites to be consistent.

_________________
FabrizioParty like it's 1773!

The safest place for me to be is in the center of God's will, and if that is in the line of fire, that's where I'll be-Fr. T. Vakoc

Fabrizio,

I was once fired from a job becuase I expressed pro-union views to a fellow worker. The government did not intervene on my behalf. Neither did anyone else. I just had to look for a new job.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

More of it. Could YOU be disciplined at work for what you say here?

Public school teacher suspended for being opposed to gay marriage on his personal Facebook. Is this tolerance?

Http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/edu ... story.html

_________________
Jeff Stevens

JMJ

Jeff,

before we answer this question, they should rather tell us, and explain how their answer is logical:

Would they fire a teacher for supporting same-sex unions on his Facebook?

We all know the answer: no they wouldn't. Because relativism is only relative as long as they are not in charge. Once in charge, all relative "opinions" disappear, and all of a sudden there is such a thing as absolute truth: their own, and you are only free to agree with them or else.

_________________
FabrizioParty like it's 1773!

The safest place for me to be is in the center of God's will, and if that is in the line of fire, that's where I'll be-Fr. T. Vakoc

I guess at least one of his "friends" wasn't really a friend! I am curious whether he had students as friends. No story that I've read says.

I tried putting Catholic in there, for example, "I almost threw up when I watched the World Youth Day...."
Huh. Somehow I don't think anybody would get fired for writing that on their FB.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

I have no idea if the Lake County School Board is involved in this or not; but many school boards within the state of Florida have made it very plain to their teachers that they will be held responsible for what they post of their Facebook pages.

The state school boards are looking for almost any excuse to terminate long time tenured teachers so that they can cut salary and so that they can cut tenure.

Why a teacher who by virtue of their role in society could be presumed to be educated would post something like that in this climate really puzzles me.

_________________
Bob C

Maybe they're hoping to make a federal case out of it?

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

What if someone passes along the information to someone who did not have access to the post originally?


I imagine he either made a mistake on his privacy setting, or he thought he was talking with selected like-minded friends, one of whom was playing gotcha.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Does "free speech" apply in this case? Is this a First Amendment issue?

_________________
Jeff Stevens

No. This is classed as "Hate Speech". First amendment only applies to anti-Christian speechCourt: Teacher can't be sued over anti-Christian remarks

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Yep.
I read this story a few days ago -- the Face Book one, that is-- and I just went back to find this quote that struck me : "School districts are legally required to make all students feel welcome in their learning environments, said Scott McLeod, who studies educational leadership and technology at the University of Kentucky. Those who discipline teachers who aren't welcoming are typically backed by courts."

So ... it is all about making people feel "welcome" or you can lose your job. I don't think Christians would feel very welcome in the class of a teacher who makes anti-Christian remarks in the classroom. The Face Book teacher (as far as we know) kept his views out of the classroom.

Yes, I think it is a free speech issue. I don't think schools should get into thought-policing their teachers in their private time.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Grace,



A big issue is, with the advent of social networking via the Internet, keeping private / professional lives clearly separated is becoming increasingly difficult. It used to be you could be a respectable banker by day and then dress up in a white hood covering your face and burn a cross in front of someone's home by night, and no one would be the wiser. Now, if you dare air your opinions on a networking site, the chances that it is picked up by someone associated with you at the workplace and disseminated to everyone else there are magnified.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Free speech is a government thing. The First Amendment does not protect your private employer from firing you for mouthing off about anything any time anywhere.

But in this case, the government IS the employer. The Courts have held consistently that a school does not have the rigth to fire or discipline a teacher for speech OUTSIDE the classroom. At least, according to the ACLU:

http://www.aclu-wa.org/news/free-speech ... l-teachers

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

You may well be correct and the teacher may prevail, but I would not want to be the test case. As Catholics I'm sure most if not all of us agree with him but a tenured teacher here in Florida is under the microscope for behavior and what you post on your social networking sites is fair game.

Some case perhaps this one will wind up being that test case, should be interesting.

_________________
Bob C

Joe,

Interesting claim by the judge that he could not have known considering how much ongoing training is done to make sure teachers don't say anything in favor of religion.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Again it seems another feel good principle premised upon the false and absurd subjective notion without scientific basis, the notion that there are 'gay' beings and therefore there can be no legitimate discrimination of said beings.

Lets get real, this is about homosexual sex and in this case the supposedly Constitutionally protected unalienable right to practice religion is being trumped by the unprotected government created right to homosexual sex.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Ah, but he didn't say anything in favor of religion. He was all against it.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

You know what? If I lived and worked in the U.S.A., I don't think I would have a Face Book account at ALL!

"By someone associated with you at the workplace." In most of the stories I've read, the problem comes from malicious meddling which is a really sad reflection on society. Lots of people out there who want to cause problems for others.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Maybe eventually the laws will decide that what happens outside of the school is not fair game.

There was another case where a young Georgia teacher lost her job because on her FB she posted photos of herself drinking alchohol while on vacation in Europe and she used one "bad" word (although this word is being used in the name of an American TV show I understand) and even though she posted the pictures under full privacy settings (no student could have accessed it), the photo was taken from her site by a Facebook friend and posted on the friend’s Facebook page, without privacy settings, and, worst of all, the complaint that caused her firing was in the form of an anonymous e-mail.

The school "had a policy stating that employees can be investigated, disciplined and terminated for postings on Web sites that contain provocative photographs, sexually explicit messages, use of alcohol, drugs or anything students are not supposed to do."

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/21586641/detail.html
http://ethicsalarms.com/2011/02/08/the- ... revisited/
http://www.barrowjournal.com/archives/2 ... wsuit.html

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Why do people assume that their internet social website postings are in any way confidential? Do people really think that all those "friends" are really friendly? I'll sick to sharing confidences with those I truly know and trust, in person and alone, not on the Infernalnet.

_________________
BobA

Grace,

I see folks that have 800+ friends. I don't think I know 800 people. How can anyone with that many "friends" expect confidentiality?

_________________
Bob C

I wouldn't put anything on Facebook that I wouldn't be willing to have printed in the newspaper or broadcast on TV.

It boggles my mind how many people use it like it was a personal diary, putting even the most intimate information out there for all the world to see!

_________________
In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

OK, you people clearly do not understand Facebook.

1) It is absolutely possible to be "friends" only with people you know in real life and who you know well. Whose character you know. I would say that 80% of my friends on Facebook fall in that category.
2) It is possible to share on Facebook only with smaller groups. Some of you who know me on Facebook may think I share a lot of relatively personal things there. That's for two reasons: a) I may share things with you that I don't share with the other 220 friends I have. b) I tend to be a pretty open person.
3) If we live a generally open and virtuous life, we have nothing to fear from sharing ourselves with the world. One might even call that an effective form of evangelization.
4) You keep saying "for everyone to see". Facebook is not for everyone. You decide who you friend. Since many of you are on Facebook, how do you not know this?

What this man shared on Facebook and Twitter which got him fired and suspended respectively is far far far less controversial than things Fabrizio says here regularly. And he posts under his real name (and his last name is not hard to find out). I have said things at least as controversial as well, and I post under my full name. And Facebook is a lot MORE private than this forum is.

What happens when your employer finds out what you said here?

_________________
Jeff Stevens

Jeff,

Have you ever found one of your posts here? I'm curious because you have a rather common name.

My fake name, besides being fake, is very common. Although Val or Valerie is a less common choice than I might have made.

My real name is also quite common and though I sometimes have a present day picture as my profile, I often do not...for instance, for the last several weeks I've had a picture of myself at 8 with my 4 year old brother. I don't think an employer is going to find that very easily...before that was my dad.

I also make full use of all privacy settings. There have been a few times when I went to far in what I said on FB and so I'm monitoring myself more carefully...there were some people I was embarrassed to have read what I wrote who are on my FB.

The requirement that nothing ever show a teacher doing what a student shouldn't do is utterly stupid in my mind...adults can do things that students shouldn't do...does this mean a teacher can't even smoke on their facebook page.

_________________
Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

To my mind, the question is one of prudence. A teacher who does inappropriate things on their FB, where anyone of nearly any age can see it, exhibits poor judgement.

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Reminds me of our old Party Line phone system. Couldn't keep a secret with only three families sharing the phone line, now it's the same system on Steroids!

_________________
BobA

Just got this in an e-mail from the American Family Association

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Good to see they realized they were impeding his free exercise of religion for the sake of promoting homosexual sex normalization.

Looks like the unalienable detailed in the Constitution does trump the liberal promotion of perversion, at least for now.

_________________
Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

Wonder when the main stream media will report this?

By coincidence just got this - Archbishop: New York Times, CNN, MSNBC can’t be trusted on abortion, faith

_________________
- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Good. That's a pleasant surprise.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

When I saw this story, I thought of this post.
Demoted for not backing gay marriage: housing manager's pay slashed for criticising new law on Facebook


And homosexual "marriage" is not even legal in the UK-- yet.

This trend is very alarming.

_________________
Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla