Catholic Online Forum

A Television Show I recently watched had a Pre-Nup agreement and the ensuing drama as the main plot of the story.

It got me to thinking about Pre-Nups and Catholics and How that could work.

It seems to me that the very act of attempting to initiate a Pre-Nuptial Agreement would invalidate the intent of the Sacramental Marriage.

Any Comments?

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Bob C

Bob,

As it happens, next week's class on marriage law will be on the subject of consent. I will ask the moderator of the curia, who teaches the class, whether the existence of a pre-nuptial agreement could affect the validity of a marriage and whether they are even considered in pre-Cana as something that prevents persons from being married in the Church. I suspect that the existence of a pre-nuptial agreement could be used in a nullity case in proving that there was defect of consent.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

The useful situation I think about in terms of pre-nups has to do with when people who are widowed marry. They have children whose financial interests should be considered. If, for example, I were to die fairly young, then I would want my husband to have whatever inheritance he received from me to specifically go to our common children after his death rather than to a subsequent wife or her children. I don't know how such things work in a state where there's community property.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Rose,

Wouldn't that question be handled by a will, rather than a prenuptial agreement? Prenups seem to be geared toward division of property or withholding of property in case of divorce.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I think it depends upon how community property is handled. Also, since community property is handled differently from state to state, a prenup can define the terms by which things will be handled if the couple moves to retire, for example.

I've watched relatives of my grandparents' generation get married and they all had prenups that specifically worked, in conjunction with the wills they updated at the same time, to protect the inheritances of the various children. At their ages, it must have been more about the rights of the heirs than about the possibility of divorce. Most of those people are lawyers and perhaps were using a bit of overkill to ensure that their wishes were followed, but on the other hand, being lawyers, they perhaps had reason to believe that a will on its own was insufficient.

On the other hand, much can be done with well-designed trust funds, but that requires a large amount of principal, if the money in question is required for the maintenance of the surviving spouse.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Excellent you will of course report on that here!

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Bob C

I remember reading someplace, several years back, that it was so used in a case. It was considered conclusive proof that the parties did not intend "till death do we part." Unfortunately, I have no idea where I read it.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I told my husband that if I die and he re-marries I will haunt him til the end of his days. That is our pre-nup.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Why is it important to you that he never re-marries?

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Jeff Stevens

My memory says the same. And has the same gaps.

I swear I've read somewhere that a pre-nuptual agreement is ipso facto indication of a defect of consent.

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Jeff Stevens

I certainly wouldn't suggest having one without good advice from my priest and lawyer.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Oh, I just cant stand the thought of him being happy with anyone but me. I am a void that could never be filled. etc, etc. I dont want some other woman trying to raise my daughters. Should I go on?

I cant even begin to imagine a life with someone other than my husband. Besides, can you imagine, at this point, trying to get used to anyone else? He is frick to my frack, ying to my yang, etc, etc.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

I would think so as it is premised upon and presupposes divorce is possible e.g. the bond is not really a bond.

By analogy one could compare employing a pre-nuptial agreement as employing contraception whether it be termed "financial planning" or "family planning" it entails a half measure rather than the full measure. I like to think of marriage as diving into the deep end of a swimming pool -you go all in. One does not wade in...

Just as one must be open to children one must be open to marriage -fully. One must give themselves complete -anything less is holding back.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

If you were in Heaven you wouldn't want anything but good things for your family. What if it were the other way around? God forbid either happens.

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Pax et Bonum


Schultzz

Jeff,

It seems that way to me as well.

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Bob C

I'm thinking the reason it is evidence of a defect is that it is an admission of something less than a total commitment to indissolubility of the marriage.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

You know what though? Love is blind and while you can be making a total commitment with your heart, the other heart may not be in the right place.

When my BIL got married, I knew. I just knew that she was in it to marry a well to do doctor. She was exactly seven years and out. She gave him two children. She cleaned him out. He fought for that marriage to the bitter end. He was so trusting, he didnt even hire a pit bull attorney and you wouldnt believe what he lost.

There are two sides to that coin.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

It is indeed a Blessing to be poor at times

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Maria

Is buying fire insurance evidence that one may not be totally committed to fire safety?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Is a commitment to fire safety in the same league as the commitment to marry?

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Agreed, Maria. Any prenup entered into by my bride would have been something like: "If you leave me, take all your junk with you!"

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

~writing that one down~

So what would a post-nup mean?

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

One buys insurance in the expectation that the event might happen. A pre-nup indicates that the parties are not fully committed to "till death do us part" but rather to "till death, or the going gets hairy, do us part."

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

On a tangental note, the state of North Carolina has an Alienation of Affection law. A person who can be proven to be a homewrecker in a court of law is held liable. There have been some expensive settlements over this. A lot of people want that one off the books.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

My wife and I can almost totally control whether we stay together as a married couple.

We cannot totally control whether our house catches on fire.

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Jeff Stevens

I bet if you posted this statement on a message board that was not Catholic themed you would get disagreement (though clearly you are correct).

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Stephen C
Boca Raton, FL

(This is not something I know much about but) I'm surprised-- I thought with no-fault divorce there would not be a place for Alienation of Affection laws.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

ROFL

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Maria

The federal government has yet to take over all things nor does it have the authority --as such, there are many laws different in each state within the Republic -this diversity that the central planners wish to quelch in the name of diversity has much to do with what the diverse nature of regions of the country and the citizens of the states. What some feel important or of value etcetera others may not. Unless something is unalienable or protected and guaranteed by the Constitution it is best decided at the lowest level possible; e.g. the concept of subsidiary applies.

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Daniel

"Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division." -- Luke 12:51

In some coutries, there is a choice with how to marry, e.g.:
* In community of property (everything is shared)
* Out of community of property (legally, what you own is yours)
* Out of community of property with accrual (start with your own stuff, share what you get after marriage)

These are really predefined prenups. I would not think that making the choice invalidates marriage. By extension, I would not think that a prenup indicates defect of consent.

I will ask our priest (a canon-lawyer) this weekend too.

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Dominique

In Portugal that's what happens and if you don't decide on one of the three, it defaults to the last one (i.e. you share whatever you gain / acquire after you are married; everything you brought into the marriage or you are entitled by family ties - so, inheritances, donations, etc - is yours alone). The main idea here is the protection of family property in case of death (since the other spouse would be a "normal" heir, instead of being a co-owner). As an interesting sidenote, wills in Portugal (and in most Civil Law countries) are very limited as there is a "right to inheritance". In the Portuguese case, a will can only cover up to 1/3 of what you possess (in value), with the rest being distributed by the natural heirs (half to the spouse if alive, the rest divided in equal parts to the progeny plus an additional equal part to the surviving spouse). I would probably be about right saying that less than 5% of the population has a will.

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Carlos

Carlos,



Very interesting....I would really hate if I were a parent to think that I couldn't control whether or not one or another of my children received an inheritance.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

Joe,



I really don't get the argument that you and others are making. I almost see the point but then I think of those who married with the full intent of staying married and then found themselves divorced through no fault of their own. A case in point being the gentlemen (don't remember his name) who spoke in a long thread on COL of his desire to stay married and his frustration at "no fault divorce" when it was his wife who chose to leave the marriage.

Jeff is right that both he and his wife are able to make the choice to stay married but neither one alone is in control of the potential that one of them will choose to leave the marriage.

A woman can't control it if a man becomes an alcoholic and starts to beat her or a man marries a woman intending "til death do us part" and she leaves him to run off with someone else nor does the fact that she left mean that she didn't intend to stay married at the time of her marriage. People change, lose their way and sin. Also, as in Elizabeth's example, a person may be fully prepared for a lifetime of marriage but unwittingly marry someone not so disposed and end up destroyed financially and emotionally. In that circumstance, a pre-nup may very well serve to prevent a person from marrying someone not fully committed if they are in it for the money and then realize that the party they're planning on marrying is planning on protecting their financial interests.

I realize I'm not married and so perhaps don't really understand the depth of love involved in making that commitment but I have to admit that if I were very wealthy I would probably want a pre-nup because I simply don't believe that my will and desire to stay married are necessarily going to be enough to insure that I stay married. Conversely, if a woman marries a very wealthy man and say gives up a career or education for that man and then finds that he's decided to dump her for a younger woman and she's left alone without the means of support that she might have had if she hadn't married then a pre-nup would insure for her some protection from that situation. Even in community property states there are ways to protect the property and wealth one possesses before marriage.

Perhaps I'm simply too cynical or greedy or something.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

You cannot disown a child, so they will always get a part of the inheritance. There is an historical reason for this as it used to exist (up to the beginning of the 20th century) an institution called a "morgadio". This meant that family properties were untouchable (could not be sold, only rented) and that everything automatically passed on to the older male son (which would tend to the family name and the "morgadio" by adding land to it). On large families, this could result on his siblings (mainly the male ones, as the female would usually marry and thus become financially dependant on their husbands) being forced to fend for themselves, only with a cash settlement when their parents died (they were intitled to some cash, as it was not land and thus not part of the "morgadio"). If the family was poor, it meant condemning someone to poverty, as most likely they would have a fair bit of land (which could not be sold) and no money.

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Carlos

It's an interesting question.

If (in the eyes of the Church tribunal) having a pre-nup is an ipso facto indication of a defect of consent - how then to keep that from being exploited/abused?

It's not hard to find observers who hold that the Church grants too many annulments (especially in the USA) and/or that a disproportionately high number of them involve couples in the USA. Could the ipso facto condition be exploited as an escape valve? "Yeah, honey, let's sign a prenup. That way, if we ever split up, the Church annulment will be as easy to get as the no-fault civil divorce and we'll each be guaranteed a fresh start." Yeah, I know - people who think like that aren't likely to care much about the annulment in the first place. Still...

Giving the matter some very casual thought, I see at least three solutions. I, of course, am neither a canon lawyer nor one of the Church's ordinary ministers of marriage.

1. Require couples to promise (perhaps in the language of the vows) that they do not/will not have any such impediment to marriage. I have doubts about the prospects for that one - we have vows to be open to what God sends us with respect to have children, and if reports are to be believed, lots of Catholics don't let that stop stem from using artificial contraception.

2. Require the couple enact a duly-witnessed, binding, legal document (as part of or with the marriage license), probably immediately before the ceremony, that declares null and void any other contracts or agreements the two parties have entered into.

3. The Church clarifies that the existence of a prenup will be a factor for consideration of a Tribunal, but not an ipso facto indication of a defect in consent.

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Rob

I was able to speak briefly with father (a canon lawyer) this evening, and he agreed that a prenup is an impediment to the marriage since the marriage is supposed to be entered into unconditionally.

As far as civil law requiring prenups, or where there is a choice as I indicated, he said that civil law will take precedence.

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Dominique

Dean,

Did you get any feedback in your Canon Law class?

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Bob C

Bob,

Yes, thanks for reminding me. The Moderator of the Curia answered that the existence of a pre-nuptial agreement that contemplated divorce at some point in the future would certainly be a condition that would evidence a defect of consent. There are many conditions that could make consent defective and, since consent brings about the marriage, a defect in consent makes a marriage invalid.

One point that I noticed in the above posts and need to bring out...the existence of a pre-nuptial agreement is not an impediment. An impediment is something that renders one or both spouses incapable of entering into a marriage. There are 12 of them in law. Marriage is brought about through 1) the consent of the bride and the groom; 2) legitimately manifested; 3) by those qualified according to the law. Impediments disqualify someone by law from marriage (i.e. #3). A pre-nuptial agreement goes to #1.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

So an agreement or contract that covered other issues (such as inheritance questions) would not be evidence of a defect of consent, right?

Our marriage licence is one side of a 8 1/2 x 13" piece of paper filled in with fancy writing on one side and covered in normal size print on the back (which we can't get to because we had it fused to a backing to frame it). We had to get it to get married, yet in all that language, (if I recall correctly) there's quite a bit of information on what to do in case of divorce. Surely the fact we had to obtain that piece of paper doesn't indicate a defect of consent.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Thanks Dean, about what I expected.

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Bob C

Rose,

I am also sure what you were required to do for the state does not indicate a defect of consent. My instructor also did mention specifically the case of an agreement signed to protect the inheritance rights of children of a widow or widower who marries again as being one of those agreements that is not in the same category as a prenuptial agreement that does indicate defect of consent.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

As I said, our license is so pretty that we had it fused to backing and then framed. It usually hangs over our living room fireplace. I don't know what happens if someone does that and then wants a divorce, because I think you're supposed to sign the back when that happens. We laughingly say its one of the *other* reasons we can't ever get divorced.

(I say "usually" because I just had to take it down and take it apart to photocopy it for my husband's employer. We just had to prove we were really all his dependants. In the process of doing that the glass broke, and now I'll have to take it back to Michael's to have them replace the glass and put the frame back together.)

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

The town in question would probably generate a stamped copy of the license for a small fee.

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Rob

British divorce lawyers advise Prince William to push for prenuptial agreementWould that make their marriage invalid? If it will be invalid should I not attend?

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Send your ticket to Crickett.

I see no need for William to have a pre-nup, the Tower of London still exists

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Bob C

Well, they didn’t exactly throw Diana into prison when she divorced…oh…wait…that didn’t work out so well…

You may have a point, Bob.

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Jeff Stevens

It may be harder to play the Queen of Hearts these days.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.