Catholic Online Forum

Some of you may have seen my other posts regarding my marriage. They are all over the place. I have been on a roller coaster for a year and a half. We started out with my wife having 2 feet out the door and divorce paperwork started to a weekend at Retrouvaille where she couldn't imagine ever feeling like leaving me. Involved in this are two beautiful boys aged 4 and 6.
Where I am now is my wife "doesn't feel it anymore" but doesn't want to leave. We get along fine, like good friends. But there is no intimacy. No hand holding, hugging, cuddling on the couch, or sex.
I love my wife very much. I love my family. I can't imagine not seeing my boys everyday. I can't imagine breaking apart my family.
Here is my question. Is it possible for a man to forego sex and intimacy in order to keep his family together? My wife seems perfectly happy to live this way. We do things as a family and have fun doing it. Basically right now it's as if she is leaving it to me to break up the family. She tells me she isn't leaving, and aparently neither am I.
She is completely closed to therapy, counseling, or further support meetings offered by Retrouvaille.
What is God asking of me? Am I to suffer silently in order to keep the family together? There are two children who deserve a family, and a selfish father who can't go a day without being with them. Should I be the one to destroy this family just so I can be "happy"?
Or, am I just to afraid to go on without the woman who I love more than life itself? Before any of this began, I was in Deacon formation. I have obviously had to drop out. Is God sending me a message that I don't deserve to be a Deacon? I honestly thought He was calling me. Now what is He calling me to?
Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. I am at a point where I literally don't know what to do.
Thanks.

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Rich

Romans 13:1-4

St. Joseph lived the sort of life you're describing. Perhaps there is something in his life or intercession that could be helpful to you.

It doesn't really relate to anything, but your avatar doesn't seem to reflect the same things as your post?

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Dear Rich,

I'll offer my thoughts for what they're worth.

Rose's advice to look to St. Joseph is excellent. Keep praying for your wife daily, and remember that things have already improved dramatically from where they were. Eighteen months ago, your marriage nearly ended, but now your wife is at least willing to remain together. I have seen some amazing turnarounds in marriages when one spouse persevered in prayer for the other.

Part of loving others means there are times when you will have to go to the cross. Giving up marital relations for the sake of keeping the family together is the total self-giving sacrifice you are making for love of the family and for love of God. If you really love your wife and children as much as you say you do, you will put aside self for their sake. Pray for the strength and patience to bear this heavy cross, and God will give you that grace. That is His promise (1 Cor 10:13).

I don't think having to drop out of deacon formation is some sort of rejection by God. I think it's more likely God is telling you to wait. Your primary responsibility is to your wife and young children, and things need to be stable at home before you can begin to take on the responsibilities of formation. You will know when the time is right to try again. It may not be until the children are much older.

I'll be praying for you, your wife, your children and your vocation. God bless you.

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Rebecca

I was recently speaking to a friend of mine. She brought up a disturbing thought that unfortunately makes sense. She said that my wife might be staying in the marriage and waiting it out for ME to decide I have had enough, this way when we separate, she can say I broke up the family. This makes it all the more difficult.

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Rich

Romans 13:1-4

Rich,

Have you spoken with an orthodox pastor about this? If your wife is not interested in doing this, at least he can perhaps mitigate the suffering you are enduring. As much as I would be hurting, if the children would be more negatively affected by my leaving than by my staying, then I hope that I would stay in the marriage. Only if the marital problems become so hurtful to the family environment that the children would be better off if I separated would I then leave. Otherwise, what is the point of separating? It doesn't mean I can then go have relations with another woman. And now I have just added the pains of separation from my children to my suffering. I can't imagine the suffering you are enduring right now. I do know you are not alone. I know of one other man, very close to me, whose wife has cut him off with no explanation. I tell him that if he is blameless then he must continue praying for his wife, because she is jeopardizing her eternity.

Regarding the diaconate...my opinion is it is best that you do not approach ordination with your marriage in trouble. Not only will the troubles severely divide your attention, but it could also cause scandal should your marriage dissolve once you are ordained. I am surprised that your diocese would accept your application when you have young children to care for in the first place. I've studied for 10 years at the seminary with my brother men who are going into the diaconate, and observing the burdens placed on them leading up to ordination, and then observing what they do after ordination, I cannot imagine being a quality deacon and being able to devote enough quality time to father young children. That's why I have given up plans to pursue the diaconate for at least the next 15 years, and why the diaconate candidates with whom I study tend to be no younger than 50.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,
The Diaconate is least in my mind. I only brought it up because I am trying to understand the cause of my problems. It was just one idea I had that I was arrogant or presumptous in wanting to become a Deacon, and I was being sent a message that I wasn't to be a Deacon.
As far as separating, I don't want to separate from my wife, nor break up my family. And please understand, my motivation is not just so I can have relations with another woman. I love my wife. I couldn't imagine being sexually intimate with another woman right now, thats not what I am looking for. I am concerned with general intimacy. Hand holding, hugging, cuddling. Kissing hello and good bye. Those are just physical things. How can I truly connect and open myself to her when I know she doesn't feel the same towards me? I don't know if I am explaining myself adiquately. How long can I live without those things?

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Rich

Romans 13:1-4

Rich,

I will pray for you. The Sacrament of marriage I am certain does not have it’s center in intimacy as you recognize. Ask what God wants and he will speak to you when you are open to it.

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BobB

Fiat voluntas tua

Rich,

I wasn't assuming any motives on your part -- just sharing with you the reasoning I would probably go through if the same thing happened to me, in the interests of keeping my family together, because an unexplainable unilateral decision to discontinue intimacy by my wife would make me very angry.

Regarding the diaconate, I would be disinclined to believe that God is sending you a message about being a deacon by making your marriage difficult. Usually good screening programs weed out men who are approaching Orders with less than pure intentions.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Rich,



In a word Yes. ".....in sickness and in health, till death do us part." Many men suffer medical problems that make intimacy difficult if not impossible, many women suffer illnesses that also make intamacy difficult if not impossible.

I realize that you are speaking of extremes in the "no touching at all", but it can be done. One thing I would urge you to suggest to your wife is that you both get a physical, I say both because if you tell her to get one she may balk at that.

Good luck, and prayers.

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Bob C

If your wife has experienced physical changes such as weight gain or stretch marks due to pregnancy she may feel she is not as desirable to you. Also, I remember when my children were small and tugging at me all day, the last thing I wanted was my husband touching me. I just needed some physical space. Or she might be scared of getting pregnant again and we all know what hand-holding can lead to...

I hope things work out for you. Keep praying.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

Another thought... she may be concerned that the intimacy of hand holding, etc may lead to an expectation of more intimacy.

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Jennifer

I reread this several times and I kept stopping at the boys ages (4 and 6) and your time away from the family (worthy reason but time focussed elsewhere) and what I read is your wife spent 4-5 of the last 7 years being Mommy, now your children are starting school and it's time to alter her focus of who she is back again...and she is probably tired...

St Theresa talked about little ways...Here are a few little ways to get back to hand holding, etc...

If she picks you up, notice the gas gage, tell her to pull into the next station and pump a tank full into her car (Most women I talk to find that having their husband care enough to make sure they won't run out of gas, incredibly sexy) Make sure she never encounters an empty toilet paper roll. Tell her to put her feet up and make dinner AND clean up. Better yet, since most mothers start thinking about what to make for dinner early in the day, leave her a note telling her you will take care of dinner and she should relax. Play with your kids. Make a regular date with the whole family...yes kids too...don't push for romantic dates yet. Go on picnics together (you do all the prep work, she's the guest) Go to family movies and laugh all together regularly. Hopefully, after a few Disney movies, you'll be holding hands at a nice romantic comedy.
In other words, Make her feel secure and taken care of, lighten her burdens, devote yourself to her children, and don't act like you have an ulterior motive.

My take often is: God said to St. Francis 'build my church" and while everone goes out and builds faith formation...someone is back at the building whitewashing the walls

Prayer and practicality.
Senzie

She is willing to stay in the marriage as long as there is nothing physical means you have a chance to win her heart again. After all, YOU ARE THERE!

For now, I suggest putting all touch on the shelf for when SHE begins to initiate it.

meanwhile, please consider my story:

I loved my friend William. Ours was a friendship of deep intimacy and absolutely no physical contact at all. Until I met my beloved friend, I could not understand what John Paul II had written in his book Love and Responsibility about true intimacy. I had always assumed intimacy meant touch. But then there was William, in all the years we were friends we hugged ONCE. His handicap sometimes meant he needed to put a hand on my shoulder to get up or down an incline or step, but that was totally non-intimate touch. But we were friends, there for each other, sharing conversation and helping to lift each other's burden. He died a couple of years ago and I still miss him!

Perhaps your wife's heart can be won by developing non-physical intimacy. Doing the things that make her life easier. Do you know HOW she likes the toilet paper hung? Find out and do it that way, ditto dishes and laundry. Check her gas gage and if you drive the car ALWAYS return it with a full tank and the tires and fluid levels checked.

My husband does so many small things that make my life better--like making sure my car is filled, and picking up after himself, and saying nice things about things I do well, or encouraging me by pointing out where I have done something well in an area I often do poorly.

He emails me articles he thinks I might enjoy.

He makes it possible for me to go do things I enjoy but which are difficult to do with the baby by being there and giving her a bottle when I am gone. I come home to a happy child.

What does your wife value? Is she the sort who would feel loved if she got flowers or some small gift? Or is she more practical and would rather someone mopped the floors with scalding hot water and then washed the mop and rags and put them away?

What things has she been bugged by in your marriage? Could you work to fix them? I know that when some habit of mine bothers my husband I work to change it. A marriage near break-up probably has plenty of this sort of thing you could make an act of love for her to change your pattern.

LISTEN to her rant. Resist the urge to defend, define, solve or advise. Just listen. Ask her how it makes her feel, and listen to her talk some more. We women really need to vent and when a man listens and doesn't attempt to solve it, but sympathizes and encourages (simple phrase like, I think you are on the right track--don't add anything else, just let her talk and you listen.) If we are able to vent until we wind down (and if things have been bad for some time there may be a backlog) then we feel better and can begin to problem solve for ourselves. The person who did the listening is going to have a positive balance in the "love bank" if they do it properly. NOT EASY, but an act of self sacrificing love.

THANK her for each and every thing she does. Compliment the food.

Do not attempt to help her improve with criticism--it helps my hubby to have a solid critique of his efforts. Every critique is a painful stab to my soul. I can deal with it at work or school (because there logic outweighs emotion) but NOT from the person with whom I am supposed to be open and vulnerable.

Some women need words. Some women desire silly gifts. Some women cry over little notes. Some women cry over a paid up credit card. Some women swoon over an involved father.... what does it for your gal?

When you learn what her heart needs then you can win her love back. But to get there you may have to let go of the physical side without any expectation that the physical side will ever come back.

If you love her enough to love her without the physical stuff--then you probably love her enough to win her heart back.

But healing takes time and you need to make your loving non-physical actions into habits so that they do not cease if she begins to warm back up to you. A con job won't do it, it has to be real.

But you can do it. Love is to will the good of the other at all times no matter what it costs you. It is action for her good. Seek that good so that she can feel loved. ANYONE can love because God put that capacity into us as "image and likeness of God" and even though marred by sin, we still have that capacity. God's grace is abundant and always available to help us love. God wills that we love, and so when we seek to love as He does we are doing His will and pleasing Him. If the family fails it should not because you did not "love your wife as Christ loves the Church".

Be faithful like God is faithful. He loves even when we don't love back.

That she is willing to stay in the family with you, keeping together for the kids, means you have a chance if you are man enough to imitate God.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

Rich, Hello... I will say I so admire you for reaching out for help to solve this family problem. You came to people who want to give you the moral support you need right. So my thought is to ask you to please consider going alone if needed, if she, your wife, will not go with you, and talk with a church leader who has the educational background to guide you in your troubled family life. If you can afford outside help please get the best qualified person you can afford. Two of my friends had worse situations than yours with their spouse and both marriages were saved. They went alone without their spouse even attending the sessions. Their mate was the one causing the marriage problem, but, they had the courage to go alone to save their marriage and they did. Take care and May God Bless You, Your Wife and Your Children, my prayers are with you. Respectfully, 71 year old Gram Sandy B

Many married couples do not have marital relations for a variety of reasons. For instance one of them can get sick and not be able. I know a practicing catholic couple where the husband could not have relations and the wife just accepted that- and it did not affect their relationship at all. This started many years ago when the husband was 52 and the wife was 47. That one part of their marriage stopped but everything else stayed the same. I realize that it takes some sacrifice on the part of the wife in this case-but what else was she supposed to do? She could not leave her family. She says it is like nothing to her and she loves her husband just the same. She says that God gave her the grace to accept this and live without it.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

Thank you all very much for your advice and input. God works in mysterious ways. After reading your replies and consulting with a Deacon from my parish, I began looking into and reading all about celibate marriages. I prayed on it, and started to become at peace with it. I could not in good conscience leave my wife and break up my family, especially since the rest of our marriage seemed fine.
Well, just as I was beginning to get used to the idea, after a wonderful evening of a very funny movie and a lot of goofing around, my wife initiated and we resumed intimacy. She apologized for hurting me and asked that I forgive her, and try to help her make sure she doesn't let things get to be that bad again.
We have much to talk about, but we have been holding hands, hugging, kissing, etc. since.
Praise God, and thank you for your prayers. I will keep this post updated for anyone who may be in similar situations.

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Rich

Romans 13:1-4

Rich,

My prayers that this is provides a foundation of mutual forgiveness upon which your marriage can be rebuilt.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That's wonderful!

I feel like it's worth pointing out, though, that this isn't something that you just "fix" once and it's fine. Marriage is a process.

That evening sounds just right. Establishing a camaraderie between spouses is important for all the other things to function well. Plus, it's one of the things that needs to be preserved or the kids take over.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Dear Rich,

What a difference from a week ago! Sounds like the Holy Spirit is at work in your marriage changing both of you for the better. My prayers for the continued strengthening of your marriage.

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Rebecca