Catholic Online Forum

It has been suggested in another thread that I start a new topic to discuss issues which effect those Catholic Couples who cannot have children biologically, or those who adopt.

To begin, let me explain my situation. I have been married for nearly 7 years to a wonderful man who converted to Catholicism before we got married. We follow the teachings of the Church in terms of being open to life, and we expected to have had one or even two children by now. Sadly, that has not happened. We have had all of the medical tests and the reason is that I am infertile. I do not ovulate. After having several painful and very emotional discussions my husband and I decided that we would not take any further medical interventions. We have examined adoption as a possibility, but the rules and regulations in the UK make it a very difficult matter to contemplate and we are undecided if this is going to be right for us.

There are so many issues that we as infertile couples face, especially when it feels like everyone is expecting us to be producing children at a great rate. I thought that perhaps we could use this thread as a forum for discussing them?

Would anyone like to start the discussion?

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Best Wishes,

Clare Rickett

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort"
Herm Albright 1876-1944

Claire,

My wife and I are infertile also so we adopted our two kids as a way to build a family. We barely think about the fact that they are adopted most of the time. However, when we were struggling to conceive we went to a few support group meetings. Those helped a bit but were depressing.

It can be a hard road but I believe God knows what He's doing.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

Andrew,

Yes, it is a very hard road. It has tested my faith on so many levels. I keep thinking that God must have his reasons, but they seem very, very difficult to understand.

I am really happy that you have found a way of having a family. I am praying hard that God shows me the right way to go, because though I would love to have a family, adoption in the UK is a minefield and it can be so tricky. So it is either we somehow manage to have them (nothing short of a miracle!) or we live together in a loving marriage, without children.

That is so easy to write, but so hard to actually do. Quite often you can feel that there is something missing and you live in a form of stasis, waiting and waiting for a pregnancy that is not going to happen. Other people tend to be oblivious of this (because I am really good at hiding how I am feeling) and ask "why haven't you got kids yet" and I have to explain to them that I am barren - without ending up in tears and gnashing my teeth. It is really hard. I love being around children, i adore my godchildren, I love being in houses full of kids, but it really, really hurts that I am not going to have that for my own home.

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Best Wishes,

Clare Rickett

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort"
Herm Albright 1876-1944

Claire,

As i indicated in the other thread my wife and I are also infertile couples. We have three adopted children who have been a real blessing to us, but it was a struggle getting to the point that we excepted that adoption was the way for us.

As I indicated in the other thread I have and believe I share a gret frustration with many people about the way infertile couples are treated by the churh. If not officially then certainly unofficially.

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Bob C

Oh, definitely Bob. Definitely.

We had a Confirmation Mass a couple of years ago celebrated by the Papal Nuncio. He was very clear that he expected all Catholic Couples to have large families and in his eyes there was no excuse not to. Well, I must say I got really upset by that. I sent a letter to the Bishop of my diocese pointing out that actually the Church in Nottinghamshire does nothing for the growing number of Catholic Couples who are infertile. There are so many out there, and the number is growing. This is never addressed. Ever.

The last time I mentioned this, Effie told me about the Elizabeth Ministry and I am trying to start an Elizabeth Ministry chapter at the Cathedral at the moment, but I have not had the time to devote to it yet. I have all the stuff, I just need a time warp device to get some time to actually do some stuff!

What really gets my goat (one of the many things actually! ) is that the Parish seems to think that because we do not have children that we have loads of extra time to be doing stuff for them. I don't think this is just happening in my Parish. Please, don't get me wrong, my husband and I are really, really involved at the Parish anyway, but we can't do everything. There does seem to be an expectation that we can though. And that we can drop everything with 20 seconds notice and be at everyone's beck and call. They would never dream of asking my good friends who have 6 children to do that. Just last weekend, my hubby was called to help his Mum and Dad out with something, so he didn't make it to our usual Mass. I was there because I was cantoring, but the fact that he didn't make it was treated like some kind of scandal. And someone actually said to me "Well, couldn't he have told us before?" Well, no actually, because he didn't know about it until early on Sunday morning. Would they be asking the same thing of a Father with three kids under 4? No, of course not.

(Oh dear... that was a bit of a rant!! Sorry about that!)

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Best Wishes,

Clare Rickett

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort"
Herm Albright 1876-1944

I didn't see any rant there, just a simple statement of a problem situation.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

Thank you Ann! I think in my head while I was typing, there was definitely a rant going on! I figured you would all hear it when you read it!!

Bob and Andrew,

Were you or your wives ever angry at God for making this so hard? This is what I struggle with most.

I go to Church every Sunday, I say my prayers at night and every morning, I am a faithful Catholic and try and spread the message of my faith wherever I go. I am kind to others, I am generous with my time and resources to all kinds of good causes, I do not blaspheme, I go to confession, I am kind to animals and old people... I really endeavour to do my best. All I would like is to get pregnant and have a baby. I don't even want 5 or 6 of them. I would be happy (no, ecstatic) with one!! How much better do I have to be to be able to do something which in theory, biologically, should be pretty simple to do? Hubby and I even did things in the right order (ie get married, then start trying for a family!) which seems to be fairly rare these days. It is just so unfair.

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Best Wishes,

Clare Rickett

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort"
Herm Albright 1876-1944

Claire,

I am glad you mentioned the Elizabeth Ministry I'll post the link to their home page


http://www.elizabethministry.com/

While the Elizabeth Ministry covers many areas of motherhood from the joys to the sorrows it is one of the few I know that addresses Infertility. Which they state is about 1 in 5 couples.

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Bob C

Was I ever, I even told God just how angry I was. Then after the anger comes the resolve that it is what it is, and you are able to move on.

I promise you Claire, that God has a plan for you, and you will learn of it in His time. Stay the course, dry the tears and press on.

My wife and I were married 15 years and had pretty well given up on Conceiving and even adoption. Then we got a call about this little girl that needed a home and had just become available for adoption...eight years later we wound up with the two boys. SO here I am at 50 attending Parent Teacher conferences with the Kindergarten teacher...DO NOT TELL ME THAT GOD Does not have a sense of humor. I can just see Him sitting up their laughing and thinking okay you wanted kids...have fun!

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Bob C

Great, I have another 8 years of hell to get through, huh?!

Some days are better than others. Some days I can see the advantage in not having babies at the moment. If Hubby and I want to go out for dinner on a Wednesday, then we can go without worrying about babysitters. If we want to get up late on a Saturday, then we can (although the cats will complain loudly about their breakfast being late!). We certainly have more disposable income now than we would have if we have kids so we can buy that new novel we fancy reading without worrying. That has meant I have been able to help my Mum and Dad out replacing their car and what not.

Then there are the other days. Baptisms at Mass on a Sunday, and any of the other sacraments, are a killer for me. I will never know the joy of having a baby baptised, or seeing them make their First Holy Communion or be confirmed. Sure, I have stood there as a godparent, and when the little ones are old enough i will be there for all of the sacraments they might receive, but it is different if the baby is yours. It has got to be different. On the really bad days I see mothers with push chairs or bawling babies or the ones who race into Mass just as it is beginning puffing, panting and looking like hell and I say to myself "I really want that to be me. I want to have all those problems. I want to have the issues of trying to get a little one to sleep at night, or the disturbed nights because of colic or teething, or sickness, or any of that stuff." And those are the days that I will cry at the Pampers advert on TV, or the one for follow on milk, or baby cough syrup or any of those.

I know that God works in mysterious ways... but there are times I really could use a bit of clarity!!

For those of you reading this thread, who do have children - be they biological or adopted - would you do something for me? Regardless of how annoying they have been, or how noisy, or difficult, please take some time to Thank God you have them. I would love to be in the position to explain to a friend how exasperating the teenager has been, or how many times I was woken up in the night. Please God, one day I will be able to do that. But right now, that day looks very far away indeed.

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Best Wishes,

Clare Rickett

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort"
Herm Albright 1876-1944

Yes, we went through a mourning period and kept asking, "Lord, why us?" But as with all crosses to bear you learn to live with it. At this point in my life, with my son a pre-teen, I don't even care anymore that we don't have biological children because our adopted kiddos are so great.

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Andrew McAllister

Respect for the dignity of every innocent human being from conception/fertilization, without exception, without compromise, without apology.

I have a relative who was infertile, and she told me that it "really impacted her relationship with God" for a few years. Yes, she was angry.
She has gotten through it, and she and her husband have fulfilling lives, and are back to loving God with all their hearts and minds. I cannot
preted to know what she or you went through, but what I wanted to say was I don't think you should feel guilty about feeling angry about it.

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Grace

As to the past, let us entrust it to God's mercy, the future to Divine Providence. Our task is to live holy the present moment. - Saint Gianna Molla

Trust me, I am thankful. Truly thankful, but the truth is, there are times when it is nothing short of agonizing and difficult and it takes every ounce of strength and a prayer to every parent saint in heaven to help you through it.

There is certainly nothing more rewarding, but with that supreme gift comes extreme responsibilty. A responsibilty that can keep you up at night wondering if God approves of how you are handling things. I will have to answer for 5 souls. I would not trade places with you for anything and I know that you would love to have that extreme responsibilty, and while our crosses are much smaller than yours, there are days they are very real and seem very heavy.

Sometimes the "complaining" is just a way of asking for prayer. I pray for you everyday and I know you do the same for me. I hope I have never offended you with my endless teenage drama.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

Elizabeth,



I advise running swiftly away from comparing the burden of any crosses, since there really is no way of comparing them, they are so different. And the burdens/freedoms that come from these different crosses are also in separate leagues.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Claire,



Did you write to the Papal Nuncio? If you didn't, I think you should. Make it an honest - not angry - letter about the pain that you are dealing with and tell him that while you know he didn't mean to, he added to that pain. And then ask him for his blessings.

He needs to hear it from someone who is living with this hole in her heart. This is a pain that is difficult to understand unless you have gone though it. Perhaps your letter will help him understand.



It's Ok to be angry at God, just as long as you don't walk away from Him. He is there with you, He won't leave you to walk this path alone.

I don't know why this is happening to the two of you. Someday you will find out and you will understand. But until then it is hard. Stay close to God and don't worry about being honest with Him about how you feel. And if people in the parish ask too much tell them that they are asking too much and refuse to do it. Sometimes you have to be blunt in order for people to get the point.

I wish that I had the words to make this all better for you, but I don't. All I can say is stay close to God and stay close to your husband. Turn to our blessed mother as well. Mary is your mother, she wants to be with you and help you through this.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

I was not comparing. Clare and I talk about this often actually and her sorrows have become a family intention at our house (at least I know she is in both my daughters prayers).


I think I was just trying to make it clear that the "complaining" does not mean I am not grateful for what God has given me. I never take my children for granted but that does not mean that the some of the trials I have been through were not good enough to get some souls out of purgatory.

Actually, I think that is why I am so empathetic toward infertile couples. I want nothing more than for them to have the joy that children bring. I know that Clare deserves it.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

Elizabeth,

Fear not my dear, I am never upset by your complaining or hearing your woes. I hope I can helps sometimes by offering totally unbiased opinions or just support and prayers! I often discuss with my husband how we would deal with similar issues. Believe me, I am well set up if we ever have teenagers! And rest assured that if I was upset, I would let you know!

And please, thank your lovely daughters and your family for including me in their prayers. That makes me feel so much better!

Effie,

There are times when I feel that God isn't anywhere at all in this whole problem, but I do know that he is with me all the time. I have found it easier to concentrate on the Marian devotions, and also "chatting" with St Therese of Lisieux and her Mum and Dad (who have been beatified recently). Also, it helps that I have commitments at Church. It ensures I attend, regardless of how grumpy I feel towards God. Though I will admit to walking right back out again when someone tells me there is a baptism at Mass. I go to a different parish, or a different Mass.

As for writing to the Papal Nuncio - no, I didn't send him a letter. But my Bishop (whom I know really well) did tell me that he had raised this issue with the Papal Nuncio. I am fairly sure that the Nuncio was left in no doubt that he had goofed!

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Best Wishes,

Clare Rickett

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort"
Herm Albright 1876-1944

Clare
I do hope and pray that you both can accept whatever God wills, and that you can achieve what you desire.

I should like to suggest that the Papal Nuncio in saying that Catholic couples should have large families was mainly referring to the bane of the age -- contraception -- which as we know is the bane of many Catholics and needs to be exposed and corrected, it is a cultural malady as well as a moral one.

Further, I should like to suggest that it is very good for the Bishop to know of and be asked to, promote remedies for infertility, but the action and the remedies really need to be examined by the laity concerned contacting those who know, forming study and action groups perhaps and working together to solve their problems, which in some cases might include adoption as has been discussed. I have given some further contacts in the other Subject Thread which I got from "google".

I should also appreciate your prayer for one of our sons in a London hospital who may have to undergo another serious operation as the previous one 8 days ago seems to have been inconclusive.

God bless

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Peter

Peter,

You have my prayers, of course.

I agree that probably was what the Nuncio was angling at, but the way he said it, and the attitude it was said in... well, it made me feel like a second class Catholic because I am infertile. It is hard enough to deal with, without feeling like somehow I am not living up to my faith because of a physical malady.

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Best Wishes,

Clare Rickett

"A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort"
Herm Albright 1876-1944

Claire,



Good, I'm glad to hear that your bishop did that.


Effie

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“The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.” –G.K Chesterton

I was diagnosed with PCOS at age 21, and while there are some women who may be able to conceive with insulin sensitising drugs and/or clomid, I was not able to. Hubs and I discussed this issue before we married and agreed that if I had problems that fertility drugs couldn't fix, we would adopt.

I actually didn't go as far with the fertility treatments as I could have; I stopped after three rounds of clomid. We could have done one more and then moved on to the injections, but after three rounds I just knew in my heart it was time to stop. The side effects, the anxiety, and then the terrible disappointment every month when the drugs failed just got to be too much.

I was reading what the Catechism says about infertility, and saw this:



So that's what we did. We started the adoption process, at the time with major doubts anyone would choose us to raise their baby. We prayed for a baby but also prayed "not my will, but Thine be done," knowing that there was a possibility we were never meant to be parents. Perhaps our mission then was to "perform demanding services for others." We were at a point where we just accepted that if it was God's will for us to have a child, it would happen, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't.

We were totally surprised when a mother chose us just a few months later, and then heartbroken on the day of the fictitious scheduled c-section when we learned the mother was a scammer. (We learned later this happens quite a lot - but no one tells you this, I suppose because it would scare away potential adoptive parents.) But God had an even bigger surprise for us with another baby just four days later.

Having gone throught this process, I am not sure we are up for another round of it in a couple years. We would gladly welcome more children if they miraculously happened naturally, but right now it's hard to imagine trying to adopt another child. The cost is outrageous and is even more so when you have to pay for an adoption and a half when one fails. The emotional cost is high, too.

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Rebecca

Claire,
It does seem unfair. I had a glimpse of the sort of pain you bear when, shortly after the birth of my third child, I was diagnosed with a condition requiring a hysterectomy. Even though I already had three, I was devastated at the thought that I could have no more. (I eventually got a second opinion that I could delay the surgery until I had more children which is what I did.) Before I became pregnant with my fifth child I was diagnosed with a chronic illness that is accompanied by a high risk of miscarriage. That risk was a shadow over my subsequent pregnancies yet I was spared. I have not even had the cross of experiencing children as a financial burden.

I cannot understand why other people have such heavy loads and I do not. I know that it is not because I deserve my blessings. I do not deserve them. It seems likely to me that you are worthier of being a mother than I am and would probably do a better job of it, too.
It is wrong that some people might think of me as more virtuous or a better Catholic because they can see that I have a relatively large family. I am guilty of many sinful actions and attitudes around sexuality and have no claim to moral superiority in this or any other area.

I cannot believe that my children are a reward for good behaviour because I have not earned one. Nor do I believe that your lack of children is a punishment or a sign that you need to be better. I suspect, if anything, the reverse is true. Your suffering is a sign that God considers you fit to serve Him in a special way and is using this trial as a way to prepare and refine you. I will pray for you.

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Jayne
"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbour's thoughts, words and deeds in a favourable way." CCC 2478

Just venting - I was just reading an article about a sperm donor who may have fathered 400 children (http://www.newsweek.com/id/227104?GT1=43002), and saw this line:



Gee, I didn't realize infertility was a lifestyle choice like single motherhood and homosexual parenting. So glad to hear it has become "more socially acceptable."

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Rebecca

If we are grouping things together, obviously Newsweek's journalists are of the same quality as those from Time, MSNBC.com, and the National Enquirer.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

My daughter has the same thing. She did get pregnant once after 3 years to everyone's great surprise. She has been unable to get pg again after 5 years. Clomid didn't work, nor did the other drug they tried (the one that desensitizes insulin). Just this week she was started on a new drug, femera, normally given to treat breast cancer. I hope it works.

My 3 children are adopted. It wasn't any easier adopting 30 plus years ago but it was more reasonable in costs. Adoption has become a big industry and it is a shame the prices that are now being charged. It is baby buying in many cases.

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Nell

"Peace is not the product of terror or fear. Peace is not the silence of cemeteries. Peace is not the silent result of violent repression. Peace is the generous, tranquil contribution of all to the good of all." Archbishop Romero

Fortunately we adopted two 40+ years ago when it was much easier.

We wanted to adopt a third but at that point Nelson Rockefeller legalized abortion in New York, and the supply of adoptable children went down. The Home we were dealing gave priority to providing a second child to those who had adopted one.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

Claire
I pray Gods Will for you.
Luke 23:29 may seem a small comfort but trust in God.

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Catholic_Chris

Celebrate the feast of Christmas every day, even every moment in the interior temple of your spirit, remaining like a baby in the bosom of the heavenly Father, where you will be reborn each moment in the Divine Word, Jesus Christ. -- St. Paul of the Cross