Catholic Online Forum

This is exciting - Christopher West will be on Nightline at 11:35 PM EST talking about the Theology of the Body:

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/Sex/sto ... 380&page=1

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Rebecca

I wish I had seen this early enough to watch the program. I've a CD of a talk of his and really enjoyed it!

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

Oh, I can not believe I missed that. I meant to watch it.

I love that line when he is asked where in the bible does it say you can not use condoms. He answers, "And where does it say, thou shall not cut off his neighbors head with a chain saw?"

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

So his heroes are John Paul II and Hugh Hefner. Why am I skeptical about this guy's authenticity?

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Christopher West didn't say Hugh Hefner was one of his heroes. Nightline did.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15928

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Rebecca

I saw the program and that sounded like what he said to me. Of course there is always the possibility that that was the result of selective editing. Or maybe West is backpedaling.

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David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I recorded it and watched it again the following day, and it looks to me like selective editing. West never said Hefner was his hero.

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Rebecca

let me see the formula:

Guy teaching clearly from John Paul II's Theology of the Body+ secular press= careful editing to create scandal and to hurt his ministry.

Secular Press. Need anyone say more?

I've read this guys books, heard some of his CD's, and have a friend who travelled to take one of the training courses in Theology of the Body and this is very clearly a case of detraction created by the secular press.

After all, the secular press is dedicated to the promotion of illicit sex in all its forms--if you go by the evidence of who gets smeared and who gets promoted.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

I'm still not sure if the actual situation was not distorted. However, having read both Alice von Hildebrand and Mary Shivanandan I am now more concerned. Yet, my exposure to Christopher West's work has been positive, which makes me wonder.

Still, this is the press we are getting things from and I do not trust even the Catholic press to get everything correct when a bit of fudging will get them more readers. What was the FULL context of what West said, and what were the FULL comments of von Hildebrand and Shivanandan? Did the later two have access to the full program with complete context before they made their comments? Or were they misled? I think we lack the full story here.

I would be leery of trusting too much that what we are getting is the full story. This just sounds like the sort of scandal presented by hell to sever the unity of those who are serving God and so divide and conquer.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

Perhaps West will take into consideration these criticism by other Catholic authors, and use it to improve his presentations. I think he does have a message that needs to be heard by an over-sexualized and under-catechized world.

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Rebecca

Actually, West clarified what he actually said in this article: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15928

Apparently Nightline failed to complete several points West made and left them wide open to this faulty interpretation.

In other words, they took whatever bits they wanted to make the story they wanted and West is way more charitable to them for what they did to his reputation than they deserve IMO.

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

The latest on this:

New Von Hildebrand essay analyzes Christopher West's approach to Theology of the Body
...............
In her 36-page essay, which she provided exclusively to CNA, Dr. Von Hildebrand explains that there are two main concerns she has with West's approach to presenting the teachings of Venerable John Paul II on human sexuality.

The first is that West “erroneously” assumes “that John Paul II has initiated a 'revolution' in Catholic teaching” in the concept of the Theology of the Body. The second concern is that West uses “loose” and what could be viewed as crude and graphic language in describing what she calls the “intimate sphere” of human sexuality.

On her first contention, Von Hildebrand wrote that “my husband would not refer to the Theology of the Body as 'a revolution'” in the way that West does, adding that West often criticizes the Catholic Church for having had what he describes as a "puritanical approach" to its teachings on human sexuality.

The philosopher noted, however, that each “age in the Church sheds particular light on some facets of the divine message,” and the Theology of the Body, properly understood, “can be seen as an example of that.”

When the Theology of the Body is presented as a radical revolution, it is twisted into something John Paul II never intended, she explained.

Contrasting the difference between West's “loose” language in discussing human sexuality and the approach of her late husband, the philosopher said that “Dietrich Von Hildebrand carefully chose the words he used when referring to the mysteries of our faith or to things that are intimate and sacred.”

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/ ... -the-body/

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

My friend Marques started an excellent discussion on his blog on the topic of Doctor Hildebrand's article.

http://marques.silvaclan.net/?p=1237

(Each quote below is an introduction to a larger comment. All posters are orthodox Catholics.)

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Jeff Stevens

Being young and going through marriage prep means just about everyone is telling me to read and celebrate the awesomeness of Christopher West. I have watched one of his recorded presentations and read his book, "Good News about Sex and Marriage". I'm no expert on his body (teehee) of work, but I'd say I'm pretty familiar with it.

I watched the presentation before I ever heard that he was anything other than the man who breathed life into the Theology of the Body and who came as the savior of modern sexuality. I was accompanied by my parents, some of my parents' friends, and my grandma. Sometimes I think I am too modern and casual about sexual matters, but watching his presentation has corrected me of that notion - I was very uncomfortable, because to me, his presentation style and wording was often... well, lurid. I wasn't just a little embarrassed to be watching something so blunt in front of "older folks", I was embarrassed for *me*. I realize that a lot of his point is to realize that sex is an incredible, holy event - but I don't understand why he has to talk about something which he obviously considers sacred in a way that sometimes borders on crass. There are so many other things in the world that rely on shock value to capture and hold people's attention, why do Catholics need to use the same degrading tactic to talk about how sublime something is? He can't possibly think he'll be more shocking about sex than the world is.

Later, I *did* find out that there was some controversy over things he has actually said, not just his love-it-or-hate-it presentation style. After several weeks of interrogating Google for everything it knew, I started leaning more and more towards the people who have problems with West, because that synced with how I felt after my introduction to him. Then I received his book as part of marriage prep, and I sat down to read it just to find out what was in it. Most of it read like his presentations, only a little more calmed down and a little more sober or reflective in tone. I still had a few sticking points, so while I was warming to him a bit, the quest for clarification was not over!

Yesterday (serendipitously!) I found this superb article written by Dr. Alice von Hildebrand about the controversy. It was the first one I had read that was comprehensive and detailed. Other articles either skimmed or spoke in broad terms about the various issues. It addressed the things that were not totally settled with me, and clarified them. Even if you've read dozens of articles and/or are firmly in the Christopher West camp, I urge you to read it. There are many points brought up to which that I have never heard West apologists give an adequate answer, or even an answer at all.

I think sometimes we can be surrounded by so much filth that anything better than the filth we hail as great, when instead it may be better but it still isn't adequate. I think we should ask for and work toward something better than Christopher West. In the meantime, now I'm curious to read what Deitrich von Hildebrand himself wrote about sex and marriage.

I don't want to be thought of as a "single issue voter", but honestly, the biggest sticking point for me is that West has basically answered the question "Is sodomy between a married man and woman right or wrong?" with the equivalent of a long pause and "it's complicated".

-Leah

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*~**Empress**~*
=^.^=

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-Albert Einstein

Leah,
I do not like listening to people using crude language as if it is normal and acceptable and everyday stuff.
One can get their point across using decent words.

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

I am reminded of the old adage: He who can does; he who can't criticizes. It would seem more helpful if his critics were to write their own, better, book on the subject.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

From what I have read, Deitrich von Hildebrand (for one, he's dead now) has done exactly that; he just doesn't have someone jazzing up his work and making it popular.

-Leah

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*~**Empress**~*
=^.^=

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-Albert Einstein

Leah,
This article might be of interest to you:

Renowned Moral Theologian Weighs-in on Theology of the Body Debate
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Faggioni, a Franciscan who teaches at the Alphonsianum, an academy named upon the father of modern Moral theology, St. Alphonsus of Liguori, is one of the most consulted moral theologians and is an advisor to several Vatican dicasteries.

In a conversation with CNA, Fr. Faggioni explained that some of the issues discussed publicly by West, such as the appropriateness of anal sex or other forms of sexual “foreplay” in married relationships, have to be dealt with using great care, since “the risk is of displacing the attention from marital love and the anthropologic meaning of lovely gestures to merely the genital aspects.”
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Moreover, Fr. Faggioni said that “it is simply not true that the traditional Catholic moral supports the use of acts that Thomas Aquinas call contra naturam -against nature- (such as anal sex) as something ordinary.”
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“Regarding this type of intercourse or others, no one can pretend to accept from another person something that offends that person’s sensibility on sexual issues or that does not respect the structure and natural complementarity of the bodies of man and woman.”
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Regarding the practice of blessing the genitals before a sexual relationship, Fr. Faggioni expressed “real perplexity.” “Without doubt, all the body in each one of its parts is God’s creation and deserves honor. We precisely respect our private parts by surrounding them with greater respect and modesty.”

“In itself,” he continued, “nothing forbids thanking God for the sexual body of oneself or the spouse, but from the perspective of Christian anthropology, it is not right to emphasize the genitals as if our sexuality could be reduced to them.

“Love is made with all the body, with the entire person’s humanity, not only with the genitals.”

http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=96419

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas

My opinion, for the little it is worth, is that everyone would be far better off to read the THEOLOGY OF THE BODY by Pope John Paul II. Just read the weekly audiences. Each is nice and short and you could read one and spend a day or so mulling it over before going on to the next one and take your time, or you could read them one right after another.

The original material is so wonderful and most people who are capable of reading ARE capable of understanding what John Paul II wrote--after all, they understood it when they listened.

Stop underestimating yourselves and go to the source. It may be difficult at first but I've read the posts by people on this forum for years and I have yet to read anyone's posts where I thought they lacked the brains to understand the writing of John Paul II if they only put the time into reading them and thinking about them.

You can do it!

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K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

Ann, this may be the nicest thing you've ever said about me!

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Jeff Stevens

Ann,
That is very good advice- and one will be sure they are reading unquestionable solid Catholic material.
Here is the link:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2tbind.htm

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In Christ
Kim, M



"....abstinence and chastity, dispose man very much to the perfection of intellectual operation.” St Thomas Aquinas