Catholic Online Forum

Dean,

The last three vehicles I have had have all been GM they have all given me 150K+ miles with very little mechanical problem (one gave me 320K+) but the have all been vans on truck bodies, in one instance a pickup....the mileage was not what you are hoping for.

_________________
Bob C

When did that happen?

_________________
Bob C

Bob,

Quality isn't the issue at all. My Saturn is at 192,500 miles on its original transmission and engine (albeit I had the valves and rings reworked at 50k and the engine burns about a quart every 1,000). It's design, features, comfort, and performance for the price that do not compete. Those are some pretty important aspects of a $20k-$25k purchase, don't you think? How bad does a product have to be before you choose something else?

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That is why I buy the larger size vehicles, I fit better.

_________________
Bob C

Well, with both parents in the work force, broken marriages, and nobody lives near enough to relatives for family to help out--or they don't care--so nobody is home with the small children teaching them the manners my mother drilled into my siblings and me.

What is more, my friends who home school have, across the board, better manners on their kids too. It comes of having to be with them all day--either they learn manners or mom gets nutty.

Parents who both work are handicapped by the lack of hours with their children. If there is a grandmother to spend extra time, it can be fine, and parents often go to great lengths to work on manners and ethics in the evenings--but the system of having a parent at home to have all day to work with the kids when they were small, and from 3PM to bed time after they began school really helped to shape kids.

my $.02 worth.

_________________
K. Ann Seeton

"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." --Aristotle (but the concept is found in John Paul II's books The Acting Person and Love and Responsibility as well.)

Quicksilver to Gold
http://hg2au.com

On the car subject...we bought a new car about a year and a half ago. I was really hoping to buy American, because well, that's what you do. We needed an inexpensive, econimical car that was big enough to comfortable drive long distances and throw a car seat in the back for when we had kids. When it came down to it, the American cars were too expensive, uncomfortable, and lacking in the features we wanted and needed. We ended up with a Nissan Versa. And I feel no guilt over it. We bought from a local dealership instead of driving out of state to find the 'best' deal. I'll keep going to my local dealership to have the car taken care of. When the American cars would have cost 5-10 grand more, were smaller, less comfortable, and had worse fuel economy, I can't justify that.

I may hate it for the employees who are getting the short end of the stick, but I also feel a lot of the responsibility is on the shoulders of the executives who have made poor decisions and choose to take large bonuses rather than taking care of their people. The situation stinks, but at least the foreign car companies are also providing local Americans with jobs.

_________________
Page G.

Being Catholic means Church teachings aren't optional!

Dean,

Perhaps there's a way to support your neighbors and buy the car you want... I mentioned earlier in the thread that I drive a VW, but I failed to note I own GM bonds. I don't own them necessarily out of a desire to support my neighbors but rather, in large part, for the enormous effective rate of return at the current price and the prospect of a buy back from GM in the neighborhood of 30-50 cents on the dollar for the face value of the bonds in the near term to significantly reduce GM debt overall, going forward (subsidized by the bailout). You definitely can't get that kind of return out of Toyota...

I've both made and lost money with these bonds in the past, back when they were worth something.

The idea is you might invest in GM/Chrysler/Ford debt (I owned their stock too) to support the community (these companies are running on debt) and go buy the car you really want that will best serve your needs. Or you might just send them a check for $1,000 and buy the car you want; or maybe donate that $1,000 to a local charity and go buy the car you really want...

Pax et bonum

_________________
-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

Brian,

Makes sense, but try explaining that to the neighbor who lost his job and sees you driving a Honda. His answer may be a key-job right down the side of the car when I'm not looking. In Michigan a lot of foreign car buyers have had to deal with such damage to their cars. The risk would be a lot less if the economy were humming along. But now a lot of people are looking for others to blame.

I am torn on this issue, because I believe I am justified in buying a car not marketed by the "Big 3." But justice is rendering to someone what is deserved. Mercy is rendering to someone what is not deserved. We are called to be merciful.

Yesterday I heard on the radio that Bob Lutz had just said keeping Saturn around was not a viable option for GM. That takes one of the 3 "American" options off the table for me.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

I heard today that, along with massive layoffs, GM is planning to discontinue Saturn and Hummer. Maybe if you buy one now and keep it pristine for thiry or forty years it will be a valuable collector's item.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Dean,

I am wondering why you feel the need to buy a new car? Why don't you buy a used car (or truck) that you fit into? With the tons of money you save, extra can go into the gas tank.

We bought our boys a 10 year old (not suggesting you buy something 10 years old) Chevy Blazer and we have gotten more than our $2500 worth out of that car. I also felt very safe knowing they had 4 wheel drive in the winters.

A Ford Fusion was not meant for anyone over 5'6" and 150 lbs. You do not belong in a small car.

_________________
Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

Elizabeth,



The main reasons are because I don't want to inherit the effects of anyone else's bad driving habits (I've had very poor luck with buying used cars), and because of the new car warranty, and because buying a used car really doesn't help the auto companies. And along the lines of inheriting someone else's bad driving habits...the cars in which I am interested are typically bought by younger drivers. Finally, I keep my cars for as long as they will drive.

My 13 year-old Saturn will go to my daughter.



Ford Fusion? Not even on my radar. Believe it or not, there are several small cars that fit the bill; they just aren't from the American car companies. I just have a problem with commuting around, alone, in a car that gets less then 30 mpg. I can see myself settling...

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

My Beetle died in July and since then I've been walking to the train station or my wife has been dropping me off. Saturday I gave in and picked up a car - 2010 Toyota Camry LE, made in Kentucky. The lease deal was US $149.00/mo. without gap insurance or $163.00/mo. with gap. We test drove the Honda Civic, sat in the Insight but for me those, slightly more expensive cars to lease, were no competition for the Camry.

We also considered on paper but didn't test drive the Mazda3 (no money down lease), the Impreza, Legacy, and Forester from Subaru (all are all-wheel-drive), or the Toyota Prius or Corrola.

I would have much preferred a Ford F-250 or a Toyota Tundra, but only really need something to get me from A to B. My projected average annual mileage is only around 2,000-5,000 so the lease seemed ideal.

Pax et bonum

_________________
-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

Honestly, I think the problem isn't that businesses tolerate this kind of thing, but we the consumer tolerate it. My local McDonalds has been pretty decent the last few months. But for about 3 years it was the worst place in town service wise. Their staff turned over on a semi-weekly basis, and a lot of their employees could hardly speak English. Point in fact, I had to ask for "lettuce" repeatedly because the girl behind the counter didn't know what "lettuce" was. I felt extremely bad for her, but the reality is this girl shouldn't have been taking orders.

Even though the service was extremely poor for three years, I still kept going there now and again. So when it comes down to it, it's my fault things didn't get better (and that they stayed in business). In a situation like the one Elizabeth was in, I think it's our responsibility as consumers to let business owners know when their staff fails to represent them well. If we do not express our dissatisfaction, the business will continue to operate as it does. That dissatisfaction can be made known by our comments to management, or by simply deciding not to do business with that company again.

My employer has an extremely good reputation where we are. A very large amount of our business comes to us by word of mouth referrals. In the poor economy this last couple years, we've found that 'traditional' means of advertising have become less and less effective. It's all about making extremely positive impressions on our customers. And when things go wrong, whether our fault or that of someone else, it's time to "wear the white hat".

_________________
Jerimiah
Knights of Columbus Council #1413 Bozeman, MT
Eucharistic Minister to Sick/Homebound

"Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world." - James 1:27

Wait a minute! Brian, I thought Beetles lasted forever.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

David,

After paying for some rather expensive maintenance, while my mechanic was driving the car back to his shop after it passed inspection, 3 doors down, the turbo blew. We ended up just giving the car to the mechanic. Perhaps more accurately, the car is dead to me. I refused to put another dollar into it and left it in a state of extreme disrepair. I'm sure the mechanic repaired it and it has a new home where it is well loved

We bought it outright with cash several years ago and I think over the life of the car it never really made economic sense. It got great gas mileage, but the price of diesel nearly doubled since we bought it, the resale value of the car dropped like a rock, necessary maintenance performed was comparatively expensive, and the car was particularly dangerous in snow and ice. We'd have been better off all around buying or leasing a new, gas powered or hybrid vehicle than putting so much cash into a liability.

Pax et bonum

_________________
-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

You mean assembled in Kentucky. The profits still go to Japan.

_________________
Bob C

Actually, the Toyota Camry is built from over 80% parts sourced in the US versus only 30% for say, the Ford Fusion. In fact, a recent survey finds the Camry "the most American car in America" even beating out the Ford F-150 - the American Made Index from Cars.com 2009. And where are those profits being reinvested? A major point made by unions in the whole GM debacle is that when they took cuts over time to help make GM more profitable, and GM took on new bond debt, what was not spent to cover pensions went to GM investments overseas - mostly in China.

GM and Chrysler will cost taxpayers directly some $100 billion to keep alive to continue to run their overseas operations and investments and build cars in large measure (more than one might think) with parts sourced from and manufactured overseas. Conversely, Toyota has invested directly some $18 billion in its US operations with annual parts purchases at their US operations approaching $30 billion (while vehicles like the Tundra & Sienna source 90% or more of their parts in the US), significantly contributing to US GDP. They needed only a $3 billion dollar loan from the Bank of Japan during the same period of financial turmoil, and still are expected to report profits...

Toyota profits? In 2004 they were about $10 billion - one third what they spend in the US on parts each year. For 2009 profits are expected to total roughly $5.5 billion. And Toyota is publicly traded... so who owns Toyota and where exactly are those profits going?

Major shareholders (3,447,997,492 total shares outstanding):

1. Japan Trustee Services Bank, Ltd. 353,082
2. Toyota Industries Corporation 201,195
3. The Master Trust Bank of Japan, Ltd. 192,363
4. Nippon Life Insurance Company 130,791
5. State Street Bank and Trust Company 119,887 (Based in Boston)
6. The Bank of New York Mellon as Depositary Bank for Depositary Receipt Holders 85,071 (Based in NY)
7. Trust & Custody Services Bank, Ltd. 84,527
8. Tokio Marine & Nichido Fire Insurance Co., Ltd. 83,821
9. Mitsui Sumitomo Insurance Co, Ltd. 65,166
10. JP Morgan Chase Bank 60,854 (Based in NY)

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/ar ... ticle.html
http://www.businessinsider.com/toyota-a ... any-2009-7
http://www.richmond-toyota.com/buy-american.htm
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp ... amMade0709

Pax et bonum

_________________
-Brian

"This is the horrendous and hidden poison of your error: that you claim to make the grace of Christ consist in his example and not in the gift of his Person." - St. Augustine correcting Pelagianism

I guess I was thinking of those old rear-engine, air cooled Beetles. They never seem to die.

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

I bought a new 2009 Saturn Aura XR 3.6 on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. Leather, power everything, 18 inch wheels, 6-speed auto, advanced audio system. Couldn't beat the price after $4000 plus $1000 owner loyalty off the GM discounted price. It's fast and tightly built and roomy. Gas mileage is under 30; I have been averaging around 24 mpg; but I was tired of merely adequate power and opted for the bigger engine; the smaller 4 cylinder engine would get over 30. It is the sister car to the Malibu, so there should be adequate dealer service and parts supplies available for many years. Very happy with the car and recommend new car shoppers to give the Malibu a hard look.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Will you have to pay a premium when it is time for new tires?

_________________
David L (CA)
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.” - Groucho Marx

Probably. I believe the price for OEM tires is $135, which is what the dealer told me when I asked him.

_________________
Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu