Catholic Online Forum

As some of you may know after 25 years my marriage ended in August of this year. I continue to love my wife (not ex-wife) and yes I say my wife as in the eyes of God we are still married.

I have two questions or concerns with the role of the Catholic Church in marriage and divorce.

First, prior to our marriage we had to go through several classes before we could get married in a Catholic Church. But once we were married, there really was not much help when we went through hard times. The state required a 6-month cooling off period before the divorce could become final. The reasoning behind the wait was that during this time there may be a possibility of reconciliation.

Although I now know about programs such as Retrouville, neither my wife nor I knew of such program from our church. The priest never took the time to speak with both of us and try to counsel us. I do not want to go back and blame the church but want to know if the church has any responsibility to try and save a marriage.

Second, I would like to know why is it so easy for divorced couples to be able to get annulment from the church. I attend a Divorce Care program at a Catholic Church and I learned that in this state, 89% of all requests are granted! Why not go ahead and approve every request? It seems to me like a joke that getting an annulment is so easy. Just fill out the application, pay your fee and just give a simple reason such as “I really did not know what I was doing 25 years ago” and you are freed from this marriage and can remarry in the church! How is it possible that after having been married for such a long time, having children, and loving each other for so long the church can simply state that the marriage never existed? I do not think that God views marriage as dissolvable so easily, so why does the church? I welcome any feedback.

I just saw my wife and kids. I see how much they hurt and I continue to hope for God’s help. I now put him first in my life and maybe that was his plan to make sure that he is always first in my life before anything or anyone else on this earth. But I am having a hard time with the role the church in marriage and divorce.

Regards,

Koorosh

An annulment is not easy to get.

One has to fill out a lengthy, detailed questionaire. I also had to write out a timeline of the courtship and marriage, describe the marriages of my own parents and my in-laws as well as other details that I don't remember at this time. (It's been 5 years since I did this.)

One must supply at least 3 witnesses that knew you and your spouse at the time of the courtship and marriage - and preferably at least 1 of those people is a family member or friend of your spouse.

The spouse must be contacted and given the opportunity to state their case.

Interviews are conducted by a member of the Tribunal or your priest. They interview you,your spouse, the witnesses.

After all the material is collected it is reviewed by the Tribunal and a decision is made.

If their decision finds the marriage was not sacramental the paperwork moves onto the national level. The material is reviewed again and a decision is made.

Just thinking about it all again is giving me hives.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

Koorosh,
I am pleased to see you posting though sorry to hear of you and your family's suffering. It sounds to me like the Church did not give you the support that you needed. On the other hand, this forum is an aspect of the Church and you did receive much in the way of prayers, advice and emotional support here. While I would like to see the institutional aspect of the Church taking more action against no-fault divorce, I do not discount the grass-roots aspect.

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Jayne
"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbour's thoughts, words and deeds in a favourable way." CCC 2478

Koorosh,

I will say a prayer for you and your family. I am sorry for all of the pain and suffering you are experiencing.

I agree with you that the annulment rate is absurd. Even though an annulment is a long process and is heavily examined, the rate of approval has skyrocketed in the last 20 - 25 years. There have been cases in recent years where the spouse that disagrees with the divorce and subsequent annulment appeals to Rome for a review of the annulment. Many times Rome reverses the annulment....their standards are a bit higher--it seems.

One of the Kennedys (Joe?) was granted an annulment in Boston Archdiocese. His former wife appealed to Rome and the annulment was reversed. It did not change their civil marital situation. They were still divorced and actually Joe had remarried. His wife (she wasn't Catholic) just did not accept this as proper Church doctrine.

Keep in touch with your family....especially your daughters. You all need each other.

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Peace of Christ

---kelly

As a canon lawyer who deals with annulments on a daily basis, I take some offense to the belief that annulments are 'easy to get.' I agonize over every decision I write. I take my job very seriously - I have to come to moral certitude on every single one of them. I look through all the testimony to see what's fact and what's speculation. If I cannot find proof for invalidity, then I have no problem writing a decision that says so. In fact, I've got one on my desk right now - both 1st and 2nd instance courts have found the marriage to be valid, but the petitioner will probably take it to Rome. And that's his right.

The rate of approval has 'skyrocketed' because so many people don't understand marriage and themselves. They jump into marriage like it's cohabitation, don't work at it, and then expect the Church to make everything hunky-dory for them. Many people go into marriage thinking 'if it doesn't work out, we'll get a divorce' - that's exclusion of permanence. Or they have such a dysfunctional family background that they have no clue as to what marriage is all about - that's grave lack of discretionary judgment, and it requires a grave, psychic cause identified by a psychologist.

We don't play games with peoples' lives, and we don't automatically 'grant' an annulment. There's absolutely nothing easy about it. The length of the marriage, number of children, etc. don't mean diddly-squat. We look at what was going on at the time of consent - that's when a marriage is valid or not. What happened down the road can give us something to look at, but it's the parties' attitude on the wedding day that matter.

Can you tell this topic is a 'hot-button' one for me?

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Mary, JCL

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Credo in Deum

Mary -
BRAVA

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Laura
Soli Deo Gloria
http://lauralowder.wordpress.com

"Since I cannot altogether live the life I would wish for, I must make my actual life better and more fruitful for God and for the souls who have been entrusted to me." Elisabeth Leseur, October 2, 1905

Mary,

I had composed a post much like yours but hesitated to hit the "Submit" button in the hopes that someone with more expertise would jump in. Thanks for jumping in. It is my belief as well that the reason it seems declarations of nullity are so easily obtained is that the preparation of the couple is so woeful in so many parishes. Many priests or laypersons who give pre-Cana training are loathe to jump into the touchy subjects, and their hands are pretty well tied from preventing a couple from getting married even if there is doubt as to their understanding of the sacrament. Given the worldly orientation of so many Christians, it is not surprising that they are lacking in understanding in many ways when it comes to the life-long, permanent, always open-to-children requirements of marriage.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Mary - thank you! You said it a million times better than I did!

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

I could never figure out why a non-Catholic would care if they received a decree of nullity or not.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

Mary,
I do not question that you and the majority of canon lawyers are conscientious in your work. It is nevertheless a a scandal that so many declarations of nullity are granted. It does make it harder for people to understand the permanence of marriage. While the problem may not lie in nullity process, there is definitely a problem.

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Jayne
"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbour's thoughts, words and deeds in a favourable way." CCC 2478

Jayne,
I would suggest that the problem - and you are right, there definitely is one! - is a social carelessness about marriage as an Institution, not to mention Covenant.

The fact that couples now are free to cohabit without marriage, and that marriage is being culturally re-engineered to include gay couples, is appalling evidence that Marriage isn't taken seriously at all.

It seems to me, from regular conversations with Mary, that people are getting married hastily, without adequate preparation, and without really thinking what they're doing.

She - and other canonists in other Tribunals across the country (around the world?) are just having to take the blame for something that predates them by years and years.

I don't even blame no-fault divorce. If it didn't exist, every woman I know who was married to a homosexual man would still be trapped (because we just knew something was wrong, and that never occurred to us). Spouses who have to live with other issues also wouldn't have an avenue of deliverance.

I do think we've created a couple generations of people who don't take personal responsibility for their choices, and so make bad ones, knowing they have an easy "out" when the fun wears out.

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Laura
Soli Deo Gloria
http://lauralowder.wordpress.com

"Since I cannot altogether live the life I would wish for, I must make my actual life better and more fruitful for God and for the souls who have been entrusted to me." Elisabeth Leseur, October 2, 1905

Yes, Kelly, it was Joseph Patrick Kennedy II

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

As I recall, the appeal of the Kennedy annulment reached Rome the same week Pope John Paul II sent a note to the Tribunal that they should scrutinize U.S. annulments closely. He had doubts about their use of psychological grounds.

Purely a coincidence of timing I am sure.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I think that decrees of nullity for non-Catholics coming into the Church may contribute to the great increase in numbers granted. Given the acceptance of divorce by many non-Catholic communities, I think such decrees have a strong basis in that the participants did not intend the marriage as non-recindable.

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- Joe Kelley

Death is only a shadow across the path to Heaven.

I have read this elsewhere. It does seem that there has been an explosion of granted declarations of nullity.

In this thread one of the posters quoted some interesting statistics on this.

viewtopic.php?t=36546

I was Protestant when I got married, and I can attest that though divorce was permitted in my denomination (as in all Protestant denominations with which I have had experience), that did NOT imply that when I married divorce was "an option." It was not. In fact, none of the Protestants of my acquaintance--and considering I grew up in a Protestant minister's household that is an extensive acquaintance--would have qualified for a declaration of nullity on the grounds of considering divorce as an option.

Just my experience.

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--Karyn

For the great Gaels of Ireland
Are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry,
And all their songs are sad.

Dear All,

Thank you for your replies. I was away for a couple of days and could not reply. I can see from your replies that this is a very touchy subject. Well that is exactly how I have felt about it. But keep in mind that I had two subjects under my discussion but I will first address the subject of annulment.

I tried to search the bible for the word annulment and I was not able to see any mention of the word. I then looked up the word on Thesaurus and description is “Voiding and agreement”. In the bible Mathew 19:4-9 when the Pharisees tried to test Jesus about divorce and asked “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason”? Jesus then replied “Haven’t you heard that at the beginning the Creator, made them male and female, and said “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh, so they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” The then said, “I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Further in Romans 7:2 &3 it states that “by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. So then if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress.”

It is clear to me that God did not intend for a husband and wife to divorce. I did not say this but the bible did! So how can a man or a church grant annulment or accept and acknowledge such deed when it is against God’s word. I can understand if one spouse had committed adultery but otherwise to say that at the time of marriage the couple did not understand what they were doing, I cannot accept this view.

If this is one the reasons for granting annulment, then perhaps the church has not done a good job at the time of marriage to insure that the marriage was for love.

Now I would like to reply to each person.

Mary Love, thank you for explaining the annulment procedure. If a family member or friends thought the marriage was not sacramental in the first place then they should have said something when the priest asked in anyone knew why the marriage should not take place or for ever hold their peace! So why do their opinion matters now and not then when a priest had asked and witnessed the marriage? Was the priest at fault and did not do his due diligence? I agree with Dean that many parishes do not do a good job of preparing couples for marriage.

As for non-Catholics caring or not caring about annulment, well as a non-Catholic I do care. Why do I care? Because I put a lot into this marriage and when I married my wife I thought that there was no Divorce in the Catholic Church and that my wife’s family felt the same. To me there was one life and one wife! Yes, I still say my wife as in the eyes of God we are still married as I had mentioned above. In 1 Corinthian 7:13-14 it states “And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her husband”. I went to a Catholic Church with my wife for 25 years! Now you know why I care about annulments!

I also do not agree with Joe that Non-Catholics are the reason behind so many divorces in the Catholic faith. I did not want this divorce and still love my wife. In many cultures divorce is much harder to get and is the case in many Catholic countries. Perhaps the problem is in this country where so many annulments are granted. Maybe we should take a closer look at why we grant so many. Even Rome and the Pope do not agree with what we are doing here in the US. Where is the Bishop?

Jayne, I truly appreciate all your prayers. I keep praying to God that if it is his will that he will restore this marriage as I still love my wife. I received a lot of help from nice people like you and that is why I am back writing in this site. I just wish the church could have provided such support before my divorce was final. Thanks again for your continue prayers.

Kelley, thank you again for your prayers. I have a problem with the rate of annulment. As I mentioned in this state the rate is 89%! How could 89% of the people be wrong at about their marriage at the time they got married? Maybe something else is wrong and need to be fixed? Thank you again for your prayers.

Mary JCL, I understand your explanation and agree that it is so easy for couples to get married. First I continue to think that the church needs to become stricter in granting marriages. If couples want to marry then let them marry somewhere else besides the Catholic Church! There is always the city hall! Unfortunately when people know that they have a “got out of jail free card” they do not seem to think about marriage as much as they should. You can see the trend and divorce rate, the church, and family had a lot more value for our fore fathers than for this generation.
Perhaps you have a chance to make a difference!

Laura thanks for your input. Perhaps we should put deception in the formula as well but I do not see anything in the bible that talks about this! If the husband is homosexual then he has committed adultery and she can get a divorce.

Jim, when we have role models such as Patrick Kennedy, what do we expect? Should the church allow such person to get married in the church again? I question our values!

Karyn thank you too for writing. I have been hurt so much by the view the church has taken that I have gone to the one source that does not change, the Bible. Perhaps we should all read it more often for if we live our lives by what God tells us, we would not be discussing this subject.

As I mentioned at the beginning there were two subjects that I had mentioned. The other is what role should the church take to prevent the divorce from taking place? I did not get the help I needed. I went to the Catholic Church for 25 years and at the end I felt all alone! Where was the church when I needed help?

I do not know if this was God’s way to bring me closer to him and perhaps it was as I now put him first in my life. Christ is my Lord and savior and he now comes first before my wife, children, mother, brother, sister or anyone or anything else. I do know that I still very much love my wife.

I just wish that the help had come sooner. No one knows the pain I am going through. No one knows the pain my kids are going through and what pain my wife is going through because we all feel it differently. I am not sure if I will go back to the church for I feel betrayed and abandoned. I hope what I am writing does not offend you but that is how I feel.

Something wonderful happened during my trip home this last time and I keep hoping that the Lord will work his magic. I will not give up on my family unless this is God’s will. I keep praying and hoping.

Regards,

Koorosh

Koorosh,

I've been watching your story with fascination. I'm a little surprised that a grown man would want so much intervention from an outside party. I wonder if you realize how restricted your life would be if the things you are asking for actually came to pass. In order to give the Church so much power over us and our marriages as you seem to suggest, a great deal of personal freedom would be completely destroyed.

Just to make sure I am not mistaken, I wonder if you could clarify. What do you expect the Church to do?

_________________
Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Koorosh,



The church does not grant annulments, the Church grants "Certificates of Nullity" essentially stating that there was never a marriage, not undoing one that existed.

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Bob C

And I continue to be amazed at the percentage of Catholics who do not realize this!

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Dear Rose,

Thank you for writing. You asked why I wanted the church to intervene. When my wife and I had our differences and were going through this difficult time we did not take the time to see what we were doing to each other. Everyone took sides in my family and hers. Now after having spent thousands of dollars which could have gone to our kid’s education or to the church for charity, we have nothing left but bitter feelings.

Now that I have moved away I realize how important she was in my life and she seems to feel the same but at this time not as much as I. The hurt that my kids are going through has been tremendous. What is going to happened when they get married? Did we set a good example for them? How will they try and keep their family together?

The problem with our society is exactly what you have pointed out. Not control but selfishness. We keep thinking of what is best for I rather than what is best for our family. In other cultures family members try and solve marital problems by intervening so that cooler heads prevail. Now that we have been apart from each other, we miss and value each other. All this hurt could have been avoided.

When my wife and I got married and once we had our kids, then our lives were no longer ours but it belonged to our families and to God. We tend to be selfish and think of ourselves rather than the ones we love.

Yes I am a grown man who still loves and cares for his wife very much. I have made many mistakes in my life as I am sure so have many people, but I have remained faithful to her and have always loved her. If you only knew how much I love this person but it dose not compare to God’s love for us that he sent his only son to die on the cross.

In Nehemiah 4:14 it says to fight for your wife and I will continue to do so until God tells me otherwise. If the church represents God then they should teach his word. All I asked from the church was for some counseling, and cooling off period before we made this terrible mistake!

Regards,

Koorosh

Dear Bob and Jim,

You say the church gives a certificate stating that there was no marriage. That is exactly the problem I have with this process. How could the church state that there was no marriage? Is it a free pass to get married at the church once again?

Perhaps I do not understand this correctly!

Koorosh

Koorosh,
To use my own situation as an example:
My ex-husband is homosexual. He did not tell me until several years after we were married that this was an issue for him, yet it was in the back of his mind when we married; he thought getting married would "fix" a problem for him.

Marriage is a covenant, not a contract, and as such has to be entered into with full knowledge and consent of the will, and it has to be shared by two people who are capable of entering into this covenant.

As a homosexual, my poor dh was not emotionally or spiritually capable of making a covenant union. His spirit was warped from his earlier experience, and his emotions suffered too; he was and is a serious misogynist.

Because he was not capable of entering into a covenant union - and the same might be applicable had one or the other of us had a mental illness that rendered us incapable of discretionary thought and reason, or been coerced into the marriage - then we did not have a sacramental marriage. We were legally married, but that was all we had.

Because we were not sacramentally married, I am not free to marry, and to marry in the Church, for which I thank God!

It is not a "free pass." I have suffered because of his duplicity, and our daughters suffer because of it, too. I resent the implication that, because of my ex's deception (which I prefer to believe more a matter of youth and ignorance than malice), I'm supposed to don sackcloth and ashes and be proclaimed "UNCLEAN!" from henceforth and forevermore.

You've done a lot of complaining in this forum, and you've revealed more personal information than is seemly or appropriate. I do wish you'd stop.

_________________
Laura
Soli Deo Gloria
http://lauralowder.wordpress.com

"Since I cannot altogether live the life I would wish for, I must make my actual life better and more fruitful for God and for the souls who have been entrusted to me." Elisabeth Leseur, October 2, 1905

Koorosh,



You do not understand it at all.

There is a legal marriage which the state may dissolve.......this is called divorce.

There is a Sacramental marriage which cannot be dissolved by anyone including the Pope.

The Church's Marriage Tribunal determines through it's investigations whether or not a marriage was Sacramental, if it is determined that it was not then a Certificate of Nullity may be issued

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Bob C

Laura, you mean "Now", don't you?

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Tribunals do not judge whether a marriage was sacramental or not. They judge whether it was valid or not.

To be certain, a valid marriage between two baptized persons is sacramental. If a marriage between two baptized persons is found to be invalid, then of course, it would not be sacramental either.

However, a non baptized person is capable of creating valid marriage without it being sacramental with either a non baptized person or with a baptized person. (If that baptized person is Catholic though, a dispensation from the ecclesiastical impediment of disparity of cult would be needed for validity.)

A sacramental marriage that is consummated cannot be dissolved. One that has not been consummated, may be dissolved by the Roman Pontiff under certain conditions.

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God bless.

(Dcn.) John M Cameron

Jim,
I don't see anything amazing about it. As far as most people are concerned annulment is the Catholic version of divorce. Most people to whom I have tried to explain it find the concept difficult to understand. Apparently the distinction between divorce and declaration of nullity is too subtle for many people to grasp.

Since Koorosh is clearly in pain over the destruction of his marriage, I would like to see people explaining Church teaching patiently. I suggest that we avoid comments that could be interpreted as implying that he is stupid or unmanly. It is bad form to hit a man when he is down.

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Jayne
"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbour's thoughts, words and deeds in a favourable way." CCC 2478

Koorosh,

I did not ask "why". You've been very clear, and we all know why.

I asked "what"? What, exactly, do you expect the Church to do?

Was the Church supposed to watch you every minute and make sure you were living your marriage faithfully according to the doctrine and therefore formed an actual marriage bond? Were you willing, 25 years ago, to give up that much of your freedom to allow it?

Do you really expect someone to throw some sort of chain around your wife to force her to live with you? Do you expect that the Catholic Church can go to court on your behalf and force the state to keep the civil side of your marriage intact?

I don't know what you're looking for, and I don't think you do, either. I think you're going to struggle with this until you can answer that question, honestly. You're in an awful situation and you're hoping someone will fix it for you, and it's not going to happen like that.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

If you are suggesting that I was implying that, I'm not sure where that idea came from.

I certainly had no intention of directing that comment at Koorosh. I was simply making a general observation about something I have seen over the years.

And since the best thing I can do for Koorosh is to pray for him and his family, I will not comment again on this thread but read subsequent posts with interest while asking God to give Koorosh the strength he needs to cope.

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

I wonder why when two staff members are participating in the thread you found it necessary to chastise a member who had done nothing improperly, his comment was to me not to Koorosh.....who BTW is not Catholic so Jim's comment would not have applied to him anyway.

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Bob C

I also agree with Dean and MaryJCL that many parishes don't do adequate preparation before marriage, however I do agree with Joe that part of the problem is with the RCIA - priests are so anxious to bring people into the Church and to receive the Sacraments (understandably) that Decree's of Nullity seem to be much easier to get in that situation. The parish in which I came into the Church, a person was not even allowed to be received into the Church unless their marriages were in order.
I believe the 89% that Kelley mentioned is the number of those annullments that went through after they were already okayed by the local priest and then accepted by the tribunal. The statistics would have been quite different if they had counted all the marriages/divorces that had been brought to their priest's attention (and then told that an anullment would not be possible).
I very much think also that marriage is viewed in such a disordered fashion by a majority in our culture, that it is somewhat unusual to find couples who look at marriage as a Sacrament that cannot be broken.
I'm so very sorry you and your family are in such pain. I will pray for you.

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Brigid

"Let not your heart be disturbed. Do not fear that sickness, nor any other sickness or anguish. Am I not here, who am your Mother? (Words of Our Lady to Juan Diego)

I can't remember the priest asking that question. Can anybody else weigh in on that one?

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The word "trinity" isn't in the bible either. When Scripture is silent Catholics rely on the Magisterium and Tradition.

---------------------------

And Deacon Lansing - thank you for clearing that up about valid marriages/sacramental marriages. Canonical language is full of subleties and shades of meaning, isn't it.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

Magic? I am hoping that was just a poor choice of words.

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Mary-Love

Jesus, I trust in You.

Sheri said

The local priest does not 'ok' any annulment - he may help the petitioner understand the process, but he has no part in it unless that priest happens to be part of the tribunal itself. The Court accepts the petition based on the information we receive at the time - and, personally, I set that bar pretty high - which can drive my auditors up a wall when I tell them we need more information before I accept a petition. But they understand my thought process - why should we go through the entire proceeding if we know from the start that the marriage will not be declared invalid?

And thank you, Deacon Cameron, for laying out the difference between a sacramental marriage and a valid marriage.

The next misunderstanding to be cleared up is that annulments are 'granted.' A grant, in canonical terms, is a favorable reply to a request - like, may I keep the Blessed Sacrament in my house. A declaration of invalidity is just that - it is a declaration that the marriage was not valid from the very moment of consent.

In this declaration, the Church does not say there was no marriage; it says that marriage was invalid - there was something wrong with the consent of one or both persons. That's why the declaration does nothing to the status of children - they are not called illegitimate, since that is a civil designation, not an ecclesiastical one.

Many people forget about a little thing we call 'free will.' Matrimony is a natural right which can be deferred for good reasons, but the couple has the right to marry. The Church normally does not deny the couple their right to marry unless there's some huge 'red flags.'

Koorosh, you also state that "perhaps the church has not done a good job at the time of marriage to insure that the marriage was for love." Love is not a prerequisite for marriage, why else would the Church approve arranged marriages?

The priest or deacon who is preparing the couple for marriage can only go by what they tell him - he can explain all the goods and properties of marriage, but if one or both don't understand it or refuse to follow what the Church teaches, but don't tell the priest/deacon that, how is he going to know?

Koorosh, you say "First I continue to think that the church needs to become stricter in granting marriages. If couples want to marry then let them marry somewhere else besides the Catholic Church! There is always the city hall!" And if a Catholic marries outside the Church without dispensation from form (which would not be granted for a 'city hall' marriage), then that marriage is invalid.

Finally, the Church encourages reconciliation prior to a civil divorce. But if one or both parties refuse, there's nothing we can do - we can't force people to go to counseling. Again, that thing called 'free will' that God gave us.

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Mary, JCL

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Credo in Deum

I recently was divorced. It wasn't what I wanted. I know our marriage is a valid, sacramental marriage. We were not ignorant, poorly catechized Catholics. However, now, nearly 17 years after we married, my wife all of the sudden has all these memories come back to her and how immature we were, etc., etc. Of course, none of this could possibly have anything to do with the choices she made over the past two years.

I, too, had no support from the Church, at least in the person of my pastor. I fully expect my wife to seek a declaration of nullity. I fully expect, though I will testify against nullity, for her to obtain an affirmative judgement from the court of first instance. I will also make it known right up front that I want the court of second instance to be the Roman Rota. If it is taken up by the Rota, I'm fairly confident that our marriage will be ruled as a valid one. Why? Because it is.

David

Koorosh,

Here is a web-site you might find worth checking out.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defendingmarriage/

Yes! I did mean "now" -
Thanks, Jim (I still want an "edit" feature!)

_________________
Laura
Soli Deo Gloria
http://lauralowder.wordpress.com

"Since I cannot altogether live the life I would wish for, I must make my actual life better and more fruitful for God and for the souls who have been entrusted to me." Elisabeth Leseur, October 2, 1905

Thanks for clarifying, Deacon John. The vocabulary is complex, and I don't use it often enough to keep straight (but I suspect that is changing rapidly these days)

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Laura
Soli Deo Gloria
http://lauralowder.wordpress.com

"Since I cannot altogether live the life I would wish for, I must make my actual life better and more fruitful for God and for the souls who have been entrusted to me." Elisabeth Leseur, October 2, 1905

Although we have two moderators participating in this thread, I suspect some of this is also directed to me, and I would like to point out, Jayne, that the massive amounts of personal detail to which we have been subjected in this particular situation, over multiple threads, are not only inappropriate for public consumption, they are unhealthy and bear witness to a pathology we are not equipped to deal with.

I would urge you to be careful of further enabling with misguided sympathy.

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Laura
Soli Deo Gloria
http://lauralowder.wordpress.com

"Since I cannot altogether live the life I would wish for, I must make my actual life better and more fruitful for God and for the souls who have been entrusted to me." Elisabeth Leseur, October 2, 1905

David,

It's possible that the tribunal in your diocese will not accept her petition, or will answer in the negative (meaning the marriage was not proved invalid). If there is an affirmative however, petitioning to Rome after 1st instance is your right. I just want to let you know that it will take them years to get an answer back - the usual is around 5 years. I have no idea why it takes them so long, when they want us to have a case done in under a year. They will probably get a couple of experts to analyze both of you, depending on what the grounds are.

Good luck! btw, most tribunals love it when both parties get involved - make sure you have witnesses who can back up your belief in the validity of the marriage with examples.

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Mary, JCL

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Credo in Deum

Hello Everyone,

Laura I will grant your wish! I will stop writing.

All I have heard has been criticism about my views, thoughts, and feelings. I thank Jayne and others for caring and I leave the judgment of the rest to God. Yes I am not Catholic and I guess that makes me less of God's creation in this forum.

All I tried to do was to show the love I had for my wife, something that seems to be rare. This divorce has forever destroyed my family and all that I believed in about this world. I leave you with God.

Koorosh

Bob,
I did not mean my comment as a chastisement. I am sorry if Jim took it that way. Only my first paragraph was meant as a direct reply to Jim. The paragraph you quoted was meant to be a general comment about this thread. It was a suggestion (not a chastisement) for everyone.

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Jayne
"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbour's thoughts, words and deeds in a favourable way." CCC 2478

Koorosh,



The fact that you are not Catholic has nothing to do with how you are treated here, what it does mean is you do not understand Catholic teachings or Catholic terminology. The fact that you used a Thesaurus to try to find a definition of what you thought was a Catholic term proves my point.

You remain welcome here but frankly I think you need to speak with someone who can help you, the help you so desperately seek and need simply cannot be provided by this Forum.

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Bob C

Koorosh,
I suspect that some people are being defensive because your posts are coming across as critical of the Catholic Church. We love the Church and that is hard for us to take.

It is also possible that there are cultural factors involved. Many of us are from cultures where men are expected to hide their pain. People from such cultures may feel uncomfortable when seeing a man express pain.

I do not think there is anything pathological about you being devastated by the destruction of your marriage and I am sorry that you were subjected to such a comment. You have sufficient cause for your grief, as far as I can tell.

While I would like to see you continue on here, I think that Bob is right that this is not the place for you to get the help that you need right now. Perhaps people will be more understanding at a support group for divorced and separated people. After more time has passed and you have worked through your grief more, you might benefit from returning here with your questions on Church teaching.

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Jayne
"To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbour's thoughts, words and deeds in a favourable way." CCC 2478

Koorosh -
I am delighted for you to participate here! but please be careful about giving us information that is not appropriate -

And, no, we are not able to give you the help you want. We can only provide fellowship and, through that, stimulation for you to be your best self in all that you do. It's what everyone here has been doing for everyone else - that en-courage-ment.

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Laura
Soli Deo Gloria
http://lauralowder.wordpress.com

"Since I cannot altogether live the life I would wish for, I must make my actual life better and more fruitful for God and for the souls who have been entrusted to me." Elisabeth Leseur, October 2, 1905

I think this post has served it's purpose.

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Bob C