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My son is a strong swimmer. His instructors (who are high school swimmers and coaches themselves) have been watching him for some time, even though he has never competed. My son doesn't like swimming. Instead, he wants to try out for the freshman basketball team. He is not a gifted player at basketball. At age 46 (he is 14) I can still take him down 10-1 in my bare feet on the cement. During his Catholic school years, he was frequently last off the bench.

I have been involved as a spectator with the basketball program at his high school for several years. I see the level of skill that even the freshmen possess. My son would easily be the last one off the bench on this team, if he even makes the team at all.

My son wants to try out for the basketball team. If he doesn't make the team, he can still swim. My fear is he will make the team (barely) and spend all his time on the bench. And that he will throw away all the money we have invested in swimming for him (it's one of those life skills we spend resources on for all of our children; my oldest (a daughter) was also a swimmer, lettering all 4 years in high school; my oldest son is a stronger swimmer than she by far). It's possible he could get a scholarship in swimming to a smaller school. If he makes the basketball team, that chance goes out the window before he even starts to attempt it.

Ray just likes to belong. If he's running around in practice and never plays, he's happy. I'm just thinking he would give up a heckuva chance by not swimming.

As a parent, what would you do and why?

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

Tough one. I've been looking into athlete development for the past couple of years, it is a subject Singapore is at the early stages of researching. Most studies on athlete development identify 14 as the right age for boys to pick the sport they want to specialise in, 12 for girls. He may seem bench quality right now, but he can push to first team with the right guidance. Take a look here, the guy who came up with this study is one of the foremost specialist in his field: Long-term athlete development

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Ian DC
Blessed Ever Virgin Mary -- Sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity where God dwells in greater and more divine splendour than anywhere else in the universe

Thanks, Ian, except that he is so far behind the 8-ball now and hasn't shown the desire to catch up. I've watched his development of basketball skills for over 7 years now. Not to mention, he gets his height from his mother and he is always the shortest on the team (although one of the strongest). In my not inexperienced opinion, he's never going to reach readiness for prime time because of physical limitations and the relative skill he has compared with his peers.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

It doesn't sound like he's a competitor. He doesn't want to compete in the area in which he excells and he hasn't bothered to get good enough to compete in the other sport.

He wants to be part of the team, he wants the atmosphere of the crowds and the cheerleaders and playing a team sport.

What were your expectations from the swimming? So far we've had two go through the lifesaving course and take a job at a local pool where they pay pretty well because it's a somewhat urban setting.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Thanks, Rose.

You're probably correct in that he's looking for something aside from competing, although it's possible too he wants to be in the game and compete but isn't driven enough to work hard to get there (he competes very hard in football). I've argued with him that, if he was really passionate about the game of basketball, he would be in the driveway everyday enhancing his skills. I certainly was, although I was never able to develop them enough to go very far in the game.

My expectations for swimming are that he will compete at the district and county level and follow in the footsteps of his older sister, because, in my opinion, his innate swimming talent is better than his sister's. His sister competed well in her league and at the district level on her relay teams. She has gone on to be a much sought-after certified swim instructor and lifeguard at another high school's community swim instruction program, which is helping her earn money for college. All this, by the way, after I pushed her into joining her high school swim team; she also didn't want to join, and changed her tune very quickly after her first few practices.

There's no reason Ray can't exceed those accomplishments, other than desire.

Bottom line - at this point, do I, still knowing what's better for him, force him into swimming? Or do I let him make a potentially life-changing mistake at his tender age?

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

So are you friends with the basketball coach? Can you get a straight answer from him? Would he be willing to have a serious discussion with your son about realistic expectations in that sport?

Does this school have JV sports or just varsity?

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Actually, yes, I do know the coach. I may take that approach.

In some sports they have freshman teams in addition to jv and varsity. Basketball is one of them.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean, I'm not sure I would be correct in so doing, but if it were my son, I would try very hard to convince him to compete in the sport in which he excels. I would do so because I have seen as a parent and a coach how much self-confidence a kid can gain by being exceptional in some area.

Should he still decide to pursue another sport in which he has less skill and chance to excel, I would support him fully as he participated. I wouldn't contrast his achievement in the sport that he chose to participate in with the potential achievement he may have gained in his best sport.

I am sure that doing so would require much effort on my part because I tend to be competitive and would be strongly tempted to bring it up if he wasn't playing much in his chosen sport but I would keep my mouth shut, lest animosity between us and lowered self-confidence on his part develop...but it would be a challenge for me.

Fortunately, I didn't face that problem with my sons. Both excelled in football and were pretty average in other sports and both chose football as their passion.

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

So... he's never competed at swimming, yet you know that he's college scholarship material? Especially considering that he doesn't like it?



Having never competed in swimming, he's "throwing away money" that you "invested" in him? Interesting perspective, and one that says a lot more about where you're coming from than it does about your desire to have your children learn "life skills". How does not competing "throw away money"... unless you already decided for him, long ago, that he would be a competitive swimmer?

If he doesn't like it, he doesn't like it. You already know your son -- he doesn't think in terms of competition. Why push him there?

oh -- one last thought: i would be very careful about having a talk with the hoops coach. if it comes back to your son, he will likely perceive this as an attempt on your part to sabotage him (and accurately so, it seems...)

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

I see wisdom in this. People generally derive satisfaction from doing something well, even if they're not all that interested in that something.

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Jeff Stevens

Hang on a second, though -- there's not a sport here, in which he excels! He's good at an activity, but he's never shown an inclination to compete in it as a sport! In fact, on the face of it, he's said to not even like the activity!

We're making quite a leap here, presuming that he's good at the sport, let alone that he'd excel, enjoy, or benefit from it, don't you think?

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Dean,

I had a similar situation with my younger son. Excellent runner, competed in 5 and 10K races as young as 10 and did well. Got to HS and decided to join the Drum Line in the band, had a ball. Unfortunately he never ran cross country again, the Football coach was also after him to play (he's built like a brick) but he had no interest.

Regarding your son there may be a third option, water polo. It's a team sport that requires excellent swimmers and a bit of basketball skills as well. My nephew swam in HS and College as well, but he loved the water polo team.

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Bob C

Larry, are you an attorney or something? Because whatever thread you get into seems to take an accusatory turn against whomever is posting. I'm asking for advice on which direction to take based on my observations of my son's skills and his desires, not an analysis of or an opportunity to defend my motives here.



Well, no. I never said that. I hope he is college scholarship material; it's possible he is. Did I ever write that I knew he was? And I'm going off of the opinions of high school swimming coaches and other instructors who were swimmers themselves. The boy has much more potential in swimming than he does in basketball. So I'm not just pushing my dreams on him (more on that below).



It would be rather strange for me and my wife, both of whom have never swum competitively and only rarely in a recreational setting, to start out beforehand with the idea that our children would be college swimmers. Yes, we started each of our children in swimming at age 6 months because I remember the terrors I had in the water as a child when my mother didn't put me and my brothers in swim lessons until I was about 7, and swimming is an important life skill. The thought that any of our kids would be highly successful at the competitive level didn't come to us until we saw what our oldest child did in high school as a result of her classes. Consequently, we have invested in stroke clinics in the summer for our next 2 children.

By the way, my motive in raising my children, if you must know, is not to give them or let them do whatever makes them happy for the moment or for a season. It's to see them develop into self-sufficient adults of good character. Sometimes that means making them do things they do not want to do, since they are hardly old enough at 14 to figure that out for themselves. Sometimes it means letting them take a fall.

The issue here is whether this decision is one of those that I permit him to make on his own and learn from, or if it is one he will regret for the rest of his life and I should therefore intervene on at a time where I am still responsible for his well-being.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

LOL... no, not an attorney (although this isn't the first time I've been accused of thinking like one!). And, I wasn't predisposed to look for ulterior motives... until I saw your line about "wasted investment". At that point, I thought, "wow! what a loaded phrase!", and yes, the thought that came to mind was, "what does this tell me about where Dean is coming from here?".



OK.. that's a fair statement. Still, from this vantage point, it sounds like a parent pushing his child in a direction he has no desire pursuing. It might turn out well... but it's also the sort of thing that drives resentment, especially considering that you're trying to form him in the mold of his older siblings, and not taking into account him as an individual. I might be way off, but that's how it seems.




True. And I don't want to suggest that I perceive any bad motives in what you've written. Still, there seemed, in your original post, a lot of "you" there, in a question ostensibly about your son. That's all.



So, you think it's possible that your son, who doesn't like swimming, will regret for the rest of his life not going out for swim team? Hmm...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

I sometimes force my kids to pray the Rosary even though they don't particularly like it.

I often force my kids to do math even though they don't particularly like it.

An activity... that's a harder sell for me.

I agree that if you don't know the coach that well, it might be seen as trying to sabotage your son, but hopefully this someone you can have an open conversation with, and who will be honest and open in return. Depending upon everyone's relationship with the coach (either the new one or the old one), I would try to see what he really thinks of the boy's skills, and what his experience as a coach of the less-good players tends to be. He might have a perspective on the question you haven't considered, even from your active role.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Just to clarify, since it was me who threw out the "sabotage" idea out there...

I wasn't thinking that the coach would have that thought ('cause, to be honest, who cares?) -- instead, my concern was that your son might find out, one way or another, and end up thinking, "Dad sabotaged my BB tryout!". That makes for serious drama for a young teen, and doesn't help the father/son relationship...

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

I see what you're saying, Larry. I do agree that it could be a problem, and I wouldn't do it unless I was sure that everyone would understand my reasoning in just wanting to make sure that everyone understood that it was all in the interest of having the best information possible all the way around. Of the three children I've raised past that age, it wouldn't have been a problem. They know me and that doing things like that is more or less how I do things.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

If you've invested in his lessons or YMCA membership or something as a life skill, then it's hardly throwing money away to not pursue it in the name of some possible payoff, is it?

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Rob

JMJ

Dean: first, I will pray for guidance for you.

Having no childrenof my own, I and my closest freind 'shared' infor as she had five children, all of whom did some sports. So, my two cents.

An old saying " A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." You son does not like swimming. Sure, if he joins the team he COULD change his min and be glad you urged him to join the swim team. But he also could remain indifferent to swimming. As you get to college age sports, the Desire to win in a sport is important. Almost any coach or teacher would probably say " I'd rather have a second string player with lots of drive and enthusiam than a frist string player just going throught the motions." Just having the physical ability to swim strongly may not take him throught four years of college-level swimming.

If he does not like swimming, I think pushing him into that activity may not be the best idea. To push your son into something he needs "You must finish high school to get a good Job'" is one thing. "You must join the swim tean" is another.

An activity is different from a required subject. If he really does not like to swim, is it really a good thing to force him?

Hope it all works out okay for both of you , Dean. I know you want only what is best in the lung runfor your chiidren.

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Peace.. Mary Jo
They that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles (Isiah 40:32)

Thank you, Mary Jo.



Well, he does need a sport, in my opinion. These days, at least in our area, if a kid isn't part of an organized sports team, he is going to have a very tough time getting the physical exercise he needs to also be of sound mind.

I was also thinking about the money "invested" statement that caused some discussion. And the heart of the matter is really not the money at all. A better description of the parent and oldest sister disappointment about my son's choosing basketball and no longer swimming, is the knowledge that the beautiful butterfly stroke that he can do with such strength that it propels him out of the water will never be used in competition. The talent he has exhibited for years will not be fully developed and will stop being used at the point he is accelerating into his prime physical shape. Have you ever been disappointed when someone you love has shown a great ability for something and that person has decided not to use it?

I am equally frustrated when my daughter and the same son with the beautiful singing voices will not use them in service to the assembly at Mass by joining the choir.

Are we not supposed to capitalize on the talents God has actually given us, rather than only pursue our own interests or what will make us "happy" today? It's not as if my kids are being kept from various opportunities to explore their talents, so that they never get a chance to find what their talents are.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

That makes sense. Thing is, there already is an organized sports team that he wants to be a part of -- basketball! The issue isn't "my son doesn't want sports", it's "my son doesn't want swimming", right?



Hmm... it seems more like "that person I love has decided not to use his talents in the way I think he should", and that's a completely different discussion. (One that is complicated by the father/teen son dynamic, to be sure, but a different thing than you make it out to be.)



This is an awesome approach to the question! How would your son react to a discussion about the parable of the talents? It's coming up again on Sunday, November 13. Would it be too late, at that point, to talk to your son after going to Mass that day? To ask him which talents he's been given by God, and what it means to walk away from those talents? (After all, we don't know why God made him a good swimmer, just that He did, and that He expects him to use those talents, and not bury them.)

(One thing that hasn't been mentioned: if he's a natural swimmer, he'd still be able to excel if he joined swimming in his sophomore year, wouldn't he?)

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Larry,



There is also the issue of investing family resources to watch him sit on the bench. With limited resources in our family and 9 kids to raise, it also becomes a matter of whether it makes sense to transport him back and forth to practice, pay the participation fees and money for shoes and camps, and spend the time sitting in the stands to watch him not play (remember, his track record over 7 years is one who sits the bench; it's not as if he is on the cusp of a breakthrough season).



The skillsets are different between basketball and swimming. He doesn't have basketball talent. He has swimming talent. Therefore, it isn't that he isn't using his talents the way I think he should. He isn't using his talents at all. And who is in a better position to judge his talents at this point anyway? And who is still responsible for his well-being? A 14 year-old boy? Or his parents (my wife is 100% in agreement with me)?



I have used this discussion already. And if we didn't have our free and fallen wills standing in the way, the approach would work 100%.



Perhaps, but he would start behind the other natural swimmers on his team and in his league who trained/swam in their freshmen year.

We're still in discussion about this with my son and between me and my wife.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Dean,

Did you give any thought to the Water Polo I suggested above?

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Bob C

I have, yes. It is a good thought. Unfortunately, water polo is a sport played by very few schools here, and there again is the scarce resource availability question to get him into a club that is not affiliated with the school. It's one reason we haven't put our kids in any AAU teams. But I will look around for something.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Sorry -- I didn't mean "talents" as "basketball vs swimming", but rather, "use of talents" in terms of "using swimming talent as a life skill" vs "using swimming talent in a competitive sport". That's something that isn't so much a "dig in your heels and assert parental privilege" thing, no?

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Larry

When I found your words, I devoured them; they became my joy and the happiness of my heart, Because I bore your name, O LORD.

-- Jeremiah 15:16

Larry,



The difference between "talent" needed to save one's life if one falls in a lake and the talent needed to compete is different too. Not nearly everyone who can splash around in a lake or pool to save his life could compete in the 100m butterfly. It's similar to the difference between writing an essay for a high school assignment, which most everyone can do with varying success, and the one person in the class who is talented enough to become a sports writer. So it is still a matter of not using one's talents here at all.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

~raises hand~

My oldest can practically do trigonometry in her head. IN.HER.HEAD. She has the one skill that I lack to do engineering. She can also understand simple circuits with a single glance at a schematic drawing while I have to trace them with my finger and go back and forth with the legend a lot. She might have gone to NC State, probably with some merit scholarship money, graduated well and been able to command as high a salary as anyone graduating from college these days. Electrical engineers are wanted these days and female ones satisfy affirmitive action requirements and are therefore a bonus.

However, she refuses to muscle through the algebra necessary to get to the advanced math, physics, and engineering she needs. It's really not that hard for her, but it takes time to follow all the steps, and she's got other things to do.

I had to step away. Forcing the issue would have entirely upset the peace of our household, and that's a negative impact upon the other eight people living here. A two year old on a snit can be carried around and put someplace where she won't bother everyone. A teenager on a snit... not so easy. There's other stuff going on that probably complicates the situation more than what you're seeing with your son that I won't get into here.

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Rose West
"May God help us not to spoil His work" (Bl. Mother Theresa)

Around here AAU teams are scouted as much as if not more then High Schools. I do understand that family resources are an issue, I had to pull my son from AAU baseball when money got too tight.

Do keep in mind that there are a fair amount of Colleges that play Water Polo so scholarships are likely available.

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Bob C

Me too

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Bob C

Dean,

My prayers for a good resolution and support for your goals for your son.

I wish my parents had pushed me to sports in high school. Both the softball and tennis coaches asked me on their teams without trying out but I was too insecure to try and I gained weight during those years. My father was too ill for them to help me through that.

Unfortunately, if he does get forced into swimming and resents you and your wife for it, then no amount of pressure from you will enable him to compete in swimming successfully if he decides, whether or consciously or not, to sabotage any success he might have had on the swim team.

You know him best though and whether that's likely.

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Valerie Garcia
vals1990@yahoo.com

"Listen, O my son, to the precepts of thy master, and incline the ear of thy heart, and cheerfully receive and faithfully execute the admonitions of thy loving Father, that by the toil of obedience thou mayest return to Him ....." St. Benedict

This is a tough call. I say go for the Varsity letter jacket as a freshman. Tell him if he walks around with a letter jacket and one of your many babies, he will be a chick magnet for sure. If he hates swimming, he can quit after this year. I think a one year deal is acceptable. You just cant say anything if he does great this year and then chooses basketball next year. He make make the freshman basketball team this year, but JV he will probably be on the fence.

If football is his passion, swimming will serve him better. You can sell him on that. He will be built like a brick house with that butterfly and be able to lead with those shoulders and his stamina will be second to none. He can always play pick up basketball, anytime anyplace.

I forced Maggie to play softball. She only joined for the sweatshirt with her name on it and to make her mom happy. She ended up loving it. I realize she is only 7 and my motives werent your motives, but I knew deep down she would get into after a very short period of time. I suspect also that Ray will bloom where he is planted. He is a pretty happy go lucky kid with a great attitiude. Push the swimming.

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Elizabeth

"Jesus go before me and prepare the way"

It is rare that people who initiate threads where important decisions are to be made remember to come back to the threads and relate the results as they come over time. I'm pleased to be able to come back and report current happenings, for those of you who are not linked up with me in Facebook.

With the repeated arguments of his parents and his older sister ringing in his head, my son quietly decided NOT to try out for freshman basketball for the Winter 2011/2012 season and instead joined the swim team. As a freshman swimmer, he rose to become the top freshman swimmer in his division in 2 strokes, and he easily earned his varsity letter as a freshman -- this despite maintaining that he still hated swimming and not being very serious about his training regimen or his diet. His coach would get frustrated with my son's ability to check-in and check-out on a moment's notice at practice and during meets.

This year, at 15, my son seems to have matured greatly -- his physical strength and endurance and appearance has exploded. He barely missed any summer weight room training for football, and somehow his focus on swimming after football season was sharply honed. We are at a loss regarding his transformation. At any rate, as a sophomore, he has made the county cut in the 200 IM, 100 backstroke, 100 butterfly, 50 freestyle, 100 freestyle, 200 freestyle, and 500 freestyle. Relatively few swimmers have the all-around ability to become eligible to compete in the county meet at all, let alone in that many events. My son's coach is VERY pleased with his dedication and character leadership of the rest of the team. There are whisperings among his coach and other instructors about the possibility of college, if his times continue to drop.

In talking with my son now, he still maintains (although with a smile) that he does not like swimming. But somehow I do not believe him. I can sense the pleasure and satisfaction he derives from experiencing directly the fruits of his labors, making a major contribution to his team and in being recognized as a leader amongst his teammates.

It appears mom and dad got this one right, thanks be to God.

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Dean
Most people's sense of history goes back to breakfast time - Benjamin Netanyahu

Good to hear. My nephew long out of College (now a Marine Corp Pilot) still swims for conditioning, and still plays water polo for fun.

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Bob C

Swimming is great cardiovascular exercise that is low-impact. Back when I taught at Savior of the World Seminary (now Savior of the World Pastoral Center, I used to swim several times a week. I even had an old pair of sneakers I would don and run across the pool in the area where the water was about chest high.

Now that steel and plastic knees have ended my running days and fear of traffic, given my deteriorating sense of balance, has led me to stop bicycling, maybe I should pick up that exercise again. I have become extremely out of shape over the past three years or so and at my age, the options for a good cardiovascular workout are limited.

I am embarrassed to admit that our tie-in Medicare supplement includes a free membership to the YMCA and there are two fine YMCA gyms within ten miles of our house and both have olympic-sized pools.

I am going to use this thread as a catalyst to follow up on this. There's no excuse for me not to stay in shape via swimming, given that for thirty years or so, I ran two to four miles a day five days a week!

Stay tuned …

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In Christ,

Jim B

I will consider your position if stated with firm, well-thought-out, quiet reasoning. Hateful diatribe, ad hominem attacks and shouted rhetoric don't impress.

Go to it Jim.

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Bob C